Re: Please! (long)(part 1) -- on seeing miracles

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: Fritz to Ezekial --- and anyone else who cares - : I read your various posts and I see you return frequently to this notion of a Western God or Christian God. What makes you think whitey has the lock on God. You appear to be living in England -- you use esses where Americans use ZZZZs to distance ourselves from you folks --anyway, there is an excellent English publisher by the name of Heineman who published the works of Elechi Amadi -- a nigerian writer who wrote novels about pre colonial Africa -- there is a LOT of spirituality in these books. A lot of God. : I don't care if whitey say all those folks went to hell for believing in their mumbo jumbo gods -- they surely believed in God and their lives benefitted from it. : I think you need to junk the bible -- you analyze it too much -- and not always with the clearest of thinking if I may say... : I was talking about James betraying Jesus -- obviously Judas betrays him too but you are absolutely right about the fact that Judas may not have been exersizing free will in his Jesus betrayal -- he plays a pivotal plot point in the story. But James -- he betrays Jesus just to save his own butt from the fire -- that proves his free will even after having lived with the Jesus for three years. : I need to quote from you for clarity: : : : If that doesn't convince you, let me put it in simpler terms. If someone came up to you and started performing all the miracles Jesus performed, and claimed he was the son of God, you have 2 options. : : 1. Believe him, cherish your faith, go to Heaven. : : 2. Disbelieve him, on the basis that he is a charlatan. : : This is seemingly two viable options which indicate free-will. : : However, Option 2 is only available to those that blind themselves or are extraordinarily stupid. If someone could consistently perform a miracle, and that miracle could not be justly or scientifically proven, only a fool would deign God not to exist. For when given the choice between paradise in heaven, or torment in hell, the choice is abundantly clear. Option 2 is not an option. :) And unfortunately in modern society, we aren't lucky enough to have either option, as we were born 2000 years too late to witness any consistent miracles :) : : It's me again -- I quote that by way of just saying James did see the miracles -- believed them and all of it -- and then still rejected his faith. Seeing miracles does not remove free-will : : : : Hello Fritz :) : : Yeah I know, I tend to ramble and rave (apparently madly) on far too long when I discuss religion, bear with me, and try and pick up the main gist of my arguments. In fact, I admire the fact that you actually responded and tried to pick holes in my argument as opposed to some ignorant religious zealots who would prefer denial. (Not mentioning anyone called Anon). : : : You folks here are very heady people. I can take my theosophysing in only small chuncks and so I would like to comment on only the question that Ezekial25:17 poses when he asked, "Would a truly just God show favoritism." I'm not big on the bible. I believe in God, simple as that. The bible might as well be just some very interesting wall paper for all I care. I don't think God loves me any less for this. So my answer to your question is that God doesn't show any favoritism. : : Well actually, if we take the bible as an indicator, God favoured the Jews above any other race, before they apparently turned their back on him. : : If God doesn't show any favouritism, why does God only exist in Western culture? In the Far East and Africa, many people have never even heard of the concept of the Christian God. Thus, they have no hope of salvation, thus they are doomed from birth. (Note I am simplifying this argument to a great extent) : : :There were many people who saw the miracles of Jesus and still turned their back on him (please note lower case h and even he still loves me) -- being present for the miracles did not relieve anyone of their free will. I know the musical Jesus Christ Superstar better than I do the bible but isn't there something in that story about one of the 12 disciples betraying Jesus before the cock crows three times? Yup. And this was a guy who had heard all about the loaves and the wine and the dead guy being raised up again. Bang -- turned on him. Had the free will to cover his own ass even though he KNEW that Jesus was the real deal. So, many apologies Mr. 12:17 but you have convinced me of very little. You make me want to just hug you, though. : : Heh, you have me there. Judas did indeed betray Jesus after he saw all those miracles, thus free-will is still theoretically possible. However, God did decide that Jesus had to be sacrificed for the greater good of mankind, thus someone had to betray Jesus to the authorities. This again would indicate an absence of free-will. :) This is assuming you believe the bible is anything more than a book of propoganda in any case :) : : If that doesn't convince you, let me put it in simpler terms. If someone came up to you and started performing all the miracles Jesus performed, and claimed he was the son of God, you have 2 options. : : 1. Believe him, cherish your faith, go to Heaven. : : 2. Disbelieve him, on the basis that he is a charlatan. : : This is seemingly two viable options which indicate free-will. : : However, Option 2 is only available to those that blind themselves or are extraordinarily stupid. If someone could consistently perform a miracle, and that miracle could not be justly or scientifically proven, only a fool would deign God not to exist. For when given the choice between paradise in heaven, or torment in hell, the choice is abundantly clear. Option 2 is not an option. :) And unfortunately in modern society, we aren't lucky enough to have either option, as we were born 2000 years too late to witness any consistent miracles :) : : Would you sacrifice eternal happiness in heaven for a measly $100,000 or so in real life, if you knew for a fact heaven existed? : : However, it is Easter, a time for peace and chocolate and if you want to spend it in a church instead of with your loved ones, its your choice :) : : : Much love, : : : Fritz

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