What do you believe?

I'M A BELIEVER!
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Nicole-
They are angry because noone likes being told that they are powerless in their own life. Most Christians are quick to say that their way is THE way. But if that were so, what of the times before one god was accepted? This one god did not exist in ancient Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, or Egypt. So what of those people? Did they go to hell without ever having known the concept of such a place? And if god's love were an unconditional and pure one, then I dont believe he would expect commitment. It seems to me that the only argument most Christians have is that God is unquestionable in his seat of power. So was Hitler.
--- Horus

The non-believers are so angry in what they write. They talk of asking God to prove he's there or to help them in some way - BEFORE they've given their lives to him. God cannot be forced to do anything.His power and His love for us is real but it requires a commitment from us!
--- Nicole

God: A power created by will. I believe in the power of the imagination. I believe it has shaped this world more so than many other factors short of necessity(Food, water). The fact that there are so many who choose to believe in God, it makes him reel. They can never be proven wrong. In their world God is very real and has power over actions and decisions. If you think it is real, it is real. Also, if you look at God as more of a universal system rather than one conscious creator, it is easier to percieve. God is all things, not one judgemental practitioner of law. I am a part of this system. The chair I sit in is a part of that system. I am God. You are God. The system as a whole is what I percieve to be god, and everything has equal power in said system. If you look at it on a big enough scale, everything is infinitely large and just as small. As bacteria is to human, human is to planet, planet is to solar system, solar system is to galaxy, galaxy is to universe, and universe is to The System. Call it god or whatever. There is a system in which I participate and I believe in it entirely.
--- Horus

Hi,
I am a believer because I know that I am the daughter of an awesome King, he is the King of heaven and earth and he created me in His image. I'm sinful but because God sent His son Jesus to the earth to die on the cross for me and all the people of the world, He forgives me when I ask for forgiveness.
I also believe because God answered some of my prayers, He has given me an awsome friend who helps me through very tough times I have at school. And who helps me understand the Bible better than before.

--- Simonè Coetzee

First of all, I grew up in the south. Baptist country. And my grandmother one of the biggest Baptists that I knew anyway. So I won't say I didn't have influence. But, even as a child I felt safe, and knew someone was watching over me. I had a rough childhood, (not the worst, just rough) but I made it through all that - being the person I am because of my faith, and because God was there for me to have faith in. To tell the truth I never really read the Bible until this past year. But, I knew He was there without it. God is very intimate to me. It's something so basic you almost can't describe it. I wish I could just take it out and give it to someone, because if they could just feel a hint of what I feel and have felt there would be no question.
There have been times in my life where I have strayed, and rebelled. And during those times I lived hard. Especially when I was a teenager. I got to where I wanted to die, didn't like myself. Slept with whoever, did any drug I could get my hands on. I wasn't a mean person, but I was definitely out for myself. And I had fun! The thing about it was when i was high I WAS HIGH but when the music stopped I'd hit a low and we're talking bottomless pit low. And that's when I searched for a new drug, and if that wasn't around then the nearest man sufficed. For a while anyway. There came a time when it all caught up to me, and I couldn't even look myself in the mirror. I was one step away from coked out whore. And, I fell apart. I was completely alone, nothing to help me escape. I was completely alone with myself and the things I had done. And all out of excuses. I broke DOWN I don't think I have cried like that since. I can't sum up my entire life in one "bio" but I was molested,my parents divorce, my dad disappearing when I was 13, I couldn't hide from it anymore. Couldn't laugh it off. I was tired and lonely, and scared. I had about a million voices RAGING through my head, these voices were scared, angry, sad, and just pissed off and self-destructive. I fell to my knees and finally cried out "God, just give me some peace please! I just need peace" And instantaneously, and I chose this word because that is EXACTLY what it was. I was consumed with this warm AWESOME sense of peace. It comforted me calmed my sobbing, and lifted me up. That "touch" saved my life that night. There were no counselors, no books, no preachers or people for any matter. It was me and GOD, and he held me that night and rocked me to sleep. And I have tried to thank Him for that since then. You'll never know what that did for my soul. I won't lie and say I've been perfect ever since. Or that life has been just peachy-because it hasn't. But, I will tell you that NOTHING has been so bad that I couldn't get through it, and I never went back to that way of life. It was empty to me from then on (it was always empty I could just finally see that) I started asking for more for my life. Something with substance. And this may sound corny, but what a blessing to be able to go to God and ask for His help. A Peace that passes Understanding. So NO there is absolutely no doubt in my mind He exists. I've "met" Him. He's been there for me every time I've needed Him, whether to comfort me, help me, or just to show me something beautiful. I pray the same for you.
--- Tracey

I'm back again, a little less angry. For all those of you who think God "allowed" 9-11 to happen for a "reason", dude, not everything has a reason. God didn't make it happen. It's a big event yeah, but it's not going to be such a question of God's love in five thousand years.
Five thousand years ago people were killed and tortured for sexual pleasure by priests. Fivethousand years ago wars killed thousands of innocent lives. Just cause some pain comes to "Invincible America" doesn't mean God is doing something to wake us up. It just means he's allowing people to have "free will" boop boop be doop
--- Lucid Priest

You people are absolutely pathetic. The entire make up of the universe is far too complex to be merely a random event that took place. People are so misled to believe that god put us on this earth so we could live happy little fucking lives. We are an experience. God may or may not love us. Who really cares. We here, alive. Deal with it. And don't hold it against your creator because you can't handle existence. Life is supposed to be complex. If we were supposed to understand every single bit of it, what would be the point of living? You may have given up even trying to comprehend any bit of it at all, but the least you could do is respect those who actually have a faith, something to believe in. Something that makes them want to actually live life for every single moment that they can. I have no set religious belief, but I think atheists are the biggest idiots. In order for there to be particles in the universe, there would have to be something to put it there. The laws of nature show that you cannot make something from nothing. Therefore by taking a scientific look at things you have just proven that there would have to have been some being there to create the earliest mapwork for the universe, for the galaxies, for every little detail in this entire plain that we can't even begin to comprehend. The point of this: don't be a judgemental prick and let people believe what they're going to believe. If you tell them that they're wrong for believing in something, then you're no better than the select few that you hate for saying that you should believe something else. Don't be a hypocrite.
--- Godliketwitch

by the way JOJ kicks ass
--- Lucid Priest

My reasons for believing in God are not as bright and cheary as so many other people's reasons are. My life was not "graced" or "blessed" with happiness or goodness. I began thinking that all the horrible things people did (to me and in general) was because there was no God. Then I began to realize that the less i believed the nicer people got, i was accepted alot quicker into more and more social circles. This started to bug me, and for a while I began to believe again and low and behold people became assholes again. I began to see the appeal of not beleiving but also realized that it was just more proof of God's existance. So after some time I fell into catholicism and was reticuled and teased even more, this time directly because of my chosen faith. and so in a weird conclusion to my logic absent explaination of why i believe in God, to all the non beleivers who would much rather make fun of my "Blind faith" I say... FUCK YOU AND YOU'RE STUPID ASS SELVES! IF YOU THINK YOU'RE SO FUCKING RIGHTEOUS FOR NOT BELIEVING AND THINKING THAT I AM TRYING TO FORCE MY FAITH ON YOU? LOOK AT YOU'RE FUCKED UP FACE AND TELL ME YOU'RE NOT TRYING TO DO THE SAME TO ME!!!! YOU CAN SUCK MY CATHOLIC DICK IF IT PLEASES YOU'RE CORPORATE RAPED ASSES!!! WATCH ME VENT MORE FUCKING ANGER AT A FACELESS WEBSITE FULL OF BLINDFAITHED BLITHERING MORONS WHO THINK THEY ARE SELF RIGHTEOUS! YOU'LL ALL BURN IN HELL YOU MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!!!!!!! I HATE THE WHOLE FUCKING WORLD AND MY ONLY RELEIF IS MY FAITH THAT GOD HAS SOME SORT OF PLAN SO FUCK IT! YOU COCK SMOKERS CAN JUST STICK TO YOU'RE CORPSES AS I BLAST PAST ALL OF YOU!
FUCK YOU!::DOUBLE MIDDLE FINGERS::
--- Lucid Priest

GOD IS A LIVE AND WELL FULL OF POWER HE AS WORKED THRU ME MANY TIMES FOR IS GLORY WITH GOD POWER I HAVE RAISED A MAN FROM THE DEAD TRACY CALIFORNIA FIRE DEPARTMENT AS RECORD ON 03 2001 A MAN AT MY JOB DIED I PRAYED AND GOD POWER RAISE HIM UP FROM DEATH ALL THIS MAN ORGANS HAD SHUT DOWN WHEN THE FIREMAN ASKED WHO WORKED ON THIS MAN I ANSWED THEY TOLD ME THIS MAN WAS GONE .IS EYES WAS ROLLED BACK IN TO HIS HEAD NO HEART BEAT THERE WAS BROWN LIQUID FROM IS MOUTH .IF YOU WANT TRUE FREEDOM IN YOUR LIFE CALL ON GOD NO PERSON OR PREACHERS THAT IS THE TRUE PEACE THE ONLY
--- larry

I experienced the grace of God in my life so many times. I prayed and meracles happened financialy and at my work. Someone mention the hate he have for Jesus because of the WTC disaster 11/09 he lost his family. Jesus didn't do it, he allowed it to happed and I cannot speculate why. Maybe it is to wake America up to see what happens in the world aroud them. Maybe it is to prevent something even worst that this to happen in the future ?! I can not feel what he is feeling now, but living in a country where we experienced war for almost 20 years, I know what bombs does to people, I lost my dad and friends in this war. I hated everybody that looked like the enemy and I was full of revenge and nasty ideas etc. etc. Through the grace of God, I forgave those who were responable for the death of those I loved and I aquired the greatest peace in my heart that can be described. The evening of the 11 Sept. I wept as if I personally lost someone. After struggling for hours with this cropped up feeling of retaliation in my heart, I went on my knees and after struggling to get out of the grip of Satan that dangled hatred and revenge in front of me, I prayed to God and said:(Jesus's words from the cross) "God, forgive them because thay don't know what they did." Immediately after that, the tremendous inner peace that took hold of me, can not be discribed in words. I know that God will forgive the sins I've committed as well because of my believe in Jesus Christ. Just a foot note: If I am wrong, I would have wasted a couple of years on earth but if you're wrong .....(An eternity of it!!)
--- Jaco

Take a look around you; the way nature is set up is too harmonious to be the product of chance, take a look at yourself, chance cannot create something so complex, so mapped out. God does exsist, and the only people who say otherwise are weaklings whose faith has failed them due to some trial in thier life, and selfworshipping sluts that beleive only in instant gratification of carnal desire.
--- Kevin

In specfic our lives as human beings and our development in a world that NO human could have created. I see it in the NEW DAY and how we interact with others and our society.
There is NO human that can take individuals and give them personal choice,system of belief,ecthics,moral values,and the choice of write and wrong.
To see the face of God I honestly believe that practicing gays will not see the face of God and in a non belivers status. Not acting on your feelings of gayiness shows restraint and true and total personal actions of belief in God.
Even though gays will have an inner feeling of how they feel and a desire to be with the same sex suppression of how one feels in this area will promote Godly Feelings
--- t,parker

If you are looking to religion, or christian people, or church to provide you with concept of God, you are bound for disappointment. If you really want to know God, begin to talk to him, then listen for his reply.
--- Anon

"If there wasn't a god, man would invent one"
Without a God humanity is nothing EVRYONE needs something to believe in otherwise we are just intelligent mammals.
--- Alex Walton

I love to worship God because he died for our sins on the cross. He loves me just the way I am.
--- Bethany

I belive because without god I would not be in this world and I didn't belive because of the questions I used to ask my self "How do we know there is a god? how did or has him help me? and from the queation I got the answers to them and I do belive in good.
--- milli

The knowledge that most people have about Christians and other re;igions is mostly steryotypes. The comfort that you feel when you cry, that is God, the one who helped you through the day, that is God, all of those small and good coincidences that happen in your life, that is God. God is a part of your everyday life and loves everyone whether you recognize it or not. I choose to recognize it, I belive in God and love him!
--- Kate

As A child, I was raised in the church. I guess this gave me a good foundation for belief in God. As I got older I pulled away from the church, but I recognized it's teachings as truth. Eventually, I started attending a Gospel Preaching church again. It seemed as though every sermon was directed at me, as though it was alligned to things that I was experiancing in my life. And, that's not all..the hymns were, too. I began to read the Bible at home more often, not just at church, but at home. Surprisingly, I found that I had a lot of anger toward God. You see, I had been looking for a real lasting relationship with Him, but never really achieved it. One day, after church, I drove up into the mountains, and there I poured my heart out to Him. Surprise...He could take my anger, my frustration, my questions. With the tears streaming down my eyes, He made me aware that I was His child. Not because of anything that I could do. He had already taken care of that on the cross. That day, He gave me an unshakable faith in Him. It will last me through all eternity.
--- Carol

I just do. I think that humans have to. Well, not just humans, I mean, I guess animals worship animal gods. Maybe. Even if you don't believe in anything, you still believe in something, So it's kind of a moot point. *shrugs* Whatever choice you make, it's still a choice. Isn't that how it goes? My idea of G-d is the one that I grew up with, so it's just something that i can be comfortable with, you know?
--- Sarah Rose

I am not a believer, I am a KNOWER. I know for a fact that it doesn't matter what I or anybody else believes, God exists. Non-believers spend too much time looking at the perishable things of earth, than the everlasting things of God's Kingdom. This gives Satan a chance to deceive people into believing that if God did exist, the bad things that happen to people wouldn't happen at all. Satan tries to deceive all. He can do it many ways, but I have found out that he controls your thinking. I'm sure he tried to deceive thousands on September 11th. But I know that God did not cause that. It was Satan. He caused it 1400 years ago by writing the Koran. Yes the Koran has a lot of truth to it, but that is what makes it so dangerous. It says to kill the infidels. (Non-Muslims) The hijackers thought they were going to heaven by committing these terrible, terrible, terrorist attacks. And there are people who kill themselves every single day so that they may kill the infidels. But I have a message for these terrorist from the only holy book in the world that is completely true, the Holy Bible. It is from the New Living Translation.
Ezekiel 32:17 On March 17, during the twelfth year, another message came to me from the Lord. "Son of man, weep for the hordes of Egypt and for the other mighty nations. For I will send them down to the world below in company with those who descend into the pit. (Hell) Say to them, 'O Egypt, are you lovlier than the other nations? No! So go down to the pit and lie there among the outcast.' The Egyptians will fall with the many who have died by the sword (missles etc.), for the sword is drawn against them. Egypt will be dragged away to its judgement. Down in the grave mighty leaders will mockingly welcome Egypt and its allies, saying, "They have come down; they lie among the outcast, all victims of the sword.'
Assyria lies there surrounded by the graves of all its people, those who were slaughtered by the sword. Their graves are in the depths of the pit, and they are surrounded by their allies. These mighty men who once struck terror in the hearts of people everywhere are now dead at the hands of their enemies.
Elam lies there buried with its hordes who descended as outcasts to the world below. They terrorized the nations while they lived, but now they lie in the pit and share the humiliation of those who have gone into the world of the dead. They have a resting place among the slaughtered, surrounded by the graves of all their people. Yes, they terrorized the nations while they lived, but now they lie in shame in the pit, all of them outcast, slaughtered by the sword.
Meshech and Tubal are there, surrounded by the graves of all their hordes. They once struck terror into the hearts of all people. But now they are outcast, all victims of the sword. They are not buried in honor like the fallen heroes of the outcasts (firefighters), who went down into the grave with their weapons-their shields covering their bodies, and their swords beneath their heads. They brought terror to everyone while they were still alive.
That passage proves that the USA will win it's war on terrorism. I gaurentee you the dead terrorist in hell now believe that Jesus is the Son of God, He died on the cross, and was risin the third day. And I know their shame of rejecting Jesus is far worse than their pain of being burned alive for all eternity. Islam says the key to getting to heaven is living a good life, committing few sins as possible, and doing good deeds. It doesn't say that belief in God is necessary. I know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are some wonderful people in hell right now that did many good things on earth, they were faithful to their churches and families, and did many good things, but they refused to accept Jesus into their hearts. God does not make distinction of sins, stealing a loaf of bread is the same as murdering somebody. Sin is Sin. God sent His Son to pay for our sins. It's a free gift, and it takes no effort to get it, just faith. And if Islam is true which it is not, then all Christians are going to heaven anyway because all true Christtians live good lives anyway. Just look at the Muslim nations, they have nothing. They are suffering from hunger, war, famine, and disease, and they are getting worse, not stronger. I never really read the Koran, but I'm sure it says that Allah will bless those who follow his word. I know the Bible says that God will bless those who follow God's word. If you look at the USA, which I think is 95% Christian, you can see that it is blessed. Why would Allah allow his followers to suffer and those who reject his Koran prosper? Sounds like a very lousy God to me. And I know that all non-Christians need to be reached, I just feel that Muslims need it the most. To be sure you are going to Heaven, just accept Jesus Christ into your heart, and believe He is the Son of God, and was risin from the dead on the third day. If you truly believe this, you are assured a place in Heaven, no matter how terrible your past is or how bad of a life you have lived. I know most people have good thougts about Heaven, but it is a billion times a billion times greater than what anybody on earth thinks of it. And you can compare the number billion to the size of an atom compared to the greatness of heaven. May the grace of our Lord Jesus be with you all. Remember that every single word of the bible is true, true whether you believe it or not.

--- Mark Stebbins

god is present in everything.the devil can take it from you,allways beware my brothers,you are always give an option in life,and i mean always,even what you think.God loves us and wants to save us all.Jesus was here on earth 2000 years ago as a man,he died on the cross for our sins so you must have the deepest respect for him and always remember whenever its done for the least of the people its done for Jesus.
When you die,Think of the love you have for your children for your wife for your brothers and sisters,all this love could never possibley die.
Yah lives in all of us and We live in him.

Peace be with you
Respect and Love each other.
No matter who you are u can feel the power of Yah
Look at the earth, man,it was made be someone very good,look at yourself deep inside you,you man,who you are,your inner self,your engine, it cannt die man.
All WHO BELIVE WILL BE SAVED

Find your self in god and god will find a place in you.
You know the best feeling ever,its the feeling I BELIVE AND YOU KNOW AT LAST YOU ARE ONE AND YOU WILL LIVE IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

I HAD A DREAM MONTHS AGO,AND IT MEANT EVERY THING IS ALLRIGHT AND I WAS AT PEACE.IT DIDNT SAY ANYTHING BUT MEANT PEACE.
ULTIMATE JOY FILLED MY HEART.
THIS IS YOUR REWARD IN LIFE AND DEATH.
THIS IS GOD SHOWING HIS LOVE FOR US ALL.
ITS SHOWEN EVERY SECOND OF YOUR LIFE,FOR JUST TAP IN MAN.

THE POWER OF GOD IN OUR LIVES IS FOR REAL
JESUS LOVES US

--- Paul

i am a believer because i cannot afford not to believe. at first i started trusting in God because of my fear of dieing and going to "hell". but as i began to pray and truly put all my faith in him, i felt a peace of mind and many blessings came into my life. if you don't believe in God and he is true, then you will perish in hell, but if you do believe in God and he is right then you have nothing to lose. So why take your chances. don't think that you should believe in God because of fear, but if it takes fear to make you a believer, then by all means. Even we as children fear punishment of our parents if we do something wrong, but as we grow older we realize that we respect our parents. Thank you and God Bless
--- eva

IM A STRONG BELIEVER BECAUSE HE MADE ME LIVE
--- OMAR HENRY

To whom it may concern-
Hi! I am a 14 year old who strongly believes in God. I have already seen how much god has worked in my life and in others. What I have seen is that God listens to me when I pray and is always protecting me. No matter what he is there for me. When I pray about something he answers me all the way from making a decision to solving a conflict with a friend or enemy.I have gone to church (almost) every sunday for the past 3 years. I have built strong relationships with so many people there. It was kind of suprising how different people at church act from people at school. You can see god working in my friends lives. At school I can be talked about, lied to, and hurt, but with the kids from church they are always there for me. They are the ones who are always open to listen to my problems with the cute guy thats being mean to me or the teacher who I do not agree with or even my parents not listenting to me and fighting with me. I trust them and they give me advise, which helps. I can always trust them to tell me the truth. I have a couple of the friends who always look to the bible, everything in the bible I believe is the word of god. There are so many stories in there that help me get through everyday life. I have a conflict with a friend, the bible has verses on how important friendship is. I have a problem with a person at school the bible tells me that you should be nice to your enemies. If that person hits your cheek, offer him to hit the other one. The person will be astonished and will respect you. Believe me it works! I have so much to share with people and I know other people do to. I love you all and hope I reached your hearts.
Luv always,
Bee
--- Bee

I believe in God because I prayed that I would get save and I got Save on September 16,2001.
--- Tinija Rolle

It's not just a matter of belief. It goes beyond that to faith. I faith in My God and in his Son. HOW he created the world doesn't matter to me. Evolution is a means to an end. Jesus...I could argue differing doctrine for the rest of my days. Jesus as my savior may be allegorical or actual. I CHOOSE to believe in Him because he speaks to my heart with kindness. He urges me to believe in something better than myself. He always chose compassion over violence. I'd rather believe in Jesus and have his LOVE and WISDOM guide my life. To not believe makes life corrupt, meaningless and empty. That's not life...that's subsistance. And my life is much richer with Christ in my heart and on my mind.
--- Denigoddess2001

I looked deeply but couldn't find,
I opened my eyes but couldn't see,
I opened my ear but couldn't hear,
By myself, all I could find were lies...

Until the day, I asked God to open my eyes so that I may see, and open my ear so that I may hear, then I saw, then I heard...
Ask and you will receive,
Seek and you will find,
Knock and the door will be opened to you.
--- Wendy

I believe God made us and if u would read teh bible u would aggree too!
--- Courtney

my life that is what happend to me my parents death and i could go on
--- TJ

why am i doing this? i don't know. will it change anything? i don't know. ... I once believed that there was no such thing as abosolute truth. but now i know that there is. It is not the message of Jesus that turns people off, it is the representatives of our faith that the un-believer meets. Life is a struggle. Letting go of ones percieved self-superiority is a struggle. The walk IS a struggle. We all constantly fail in our aspirations set by ourselves and set by God. God exists, this fact is as it is whether he is believed in or not. And he's more interested in you simply being willing to seek him that keeping a list of wrongs. Is there a such a thing as sin? of course there is, but that is nothing new. It is a persons relationship with the greatest ally he need ever know that is revolutionary. Mock my words but life without God never satisfies. We realize that there is NO SUCH THING AS A FORCED CONVERSION its an individual choice. "seek and you shall find." There are no easy answers but one thing endures.
--- donald finney

When in Lourdes a powerful essence could be felt eminating from everything. A great many people felt it and it was almost too powerful to withstand. It's impossible to describe in words, but it was the happiest feeling I've ever felt, and it makes me believe, no, know God truely exists.
--- "Anon"

Kelly God loves you youre right religion is for the birds BUT SALAVATION IS FOR GODS PEOPLE dont give up on the Lord not yet he has a lot to show you
--- madison

i want to respond to Ezekiel Madison
--- "Anon"

i want to respond to Ezekiel you dont know me but i have a few things to say if its ok i am a believer not because of my up bringing or my church or for reasons you could probably come up with im a believer because of what God has done for me in my life i was abused very badly as a child my mother drank bad her and my dad ran around on each other and i found out later in years the man i thought was my dad wasnt even my dad i cant really tell you how mixed up my life was then when i grew up i met this wonderful person his name was allen (my husband) i just knew in my heart this man would change my life and to a certain point he did it wasnt long after we were married even though we were very happy we both knew something was missing God began to deal with both our hearts. we needed more. im sure its hard for you to believe me but i have no reason to tell you a lie.if you only knew. i had a sickness for 15 years and while praying for someone elseGod totally healed me. i had cancer (sis)under my tounge at the age of 8 i was prayed for and the next day it was gone. id have something as minor as a headache but it would be aggravating pray and God would take it away. you can say what you want but i know i had no sort of so called (inter self healing powers) my healings came from God and i know they did. you call yourself a nonbeliever i dont buy it. you know yourself God is dealing with you as i tell you this. dont matter what anyone else says go by what you feel in your heart for some reason reading things you write just doesnt go along with the type of person i hear.believe it or not GOD LOVES YOU and if you dont believe it it doesnt stop him from still loving you. he gives us a choice to trust him or not to trust him just try believing completely on him for one day talk to him give him a chance God will make himself real to you but only if you let him what have you got to lose
--- "Anon"

Anon to the comment on following words and saying God exsits is like denying to learn A B C D if you didnt belive in your teacher at that time you would never learn to read and write same here you belive in the Super Energy (as I call it) and everything will fall in place. I belive you can give it the name you like(univerasal name being God)there is some energy that is giving us life and showing in different forms.
--- janu

the bible says every man is born with a certain amount of faith you can add to this faith by reading Gods words and living it the best you can or you can take away from it by being stupid. God loves us that means you {YOU) he gave his only son to die on a cross for you and me how do i know this?because he is living in my heart in all our hearts that serve him yes we make mistakes but that was the reason for his death im not just going on what the bible says but my own personal experiences (I KNOW HE IS REAL) cant convence me otherwise and if you think im the fool guess again im on my way to heaven one day ihave loved ones there and guess what im going to see them again do you have someone praying for you or did you have someone praying for you thats gone now did you love them were they crazy of course not it was because of Gods Love they kept you in their prayers God said in his words to try the spirit if you are sencere God (I promise) will not fail you he will let him self be known to you and there will be no doubt
--- madisoni

im a believer because i know how i was raised sure my family believed in god but never did we let him become a real part of our lives i look back to alot of beatings cursing and very (very) dangerious times when God has keep us all safe (we not even aware of it) he has just done so much in my life I would have to write a book just to tell all he has done. ive seen Gods powers time and time and time again also i have seen the damage of satans powers he will lie to you try to make you believe no one cares he wil take good deceant people and destroy their lives.i have seen deamons appear before me they have been scary at times they have been attractive (to fool you)and they have tried to be funny theyve tried to be sexy beyond you could think and even scarcastic. all deamons are liers.to be able to tell if theres deamons involved in something you have to pray alot and ask for Gods protection and guidance without this you are not protected and deamons are serious and dangerious beings im not sure as of yet if it be one or more that tried to take my daughters life this past weekend but PRAISE GOD (I SAID SATAN) PRAISE THE ALMIGHTY GOD ABOVE) you failed and you always will.i ask for your prayers believe me when i say this is all real (think about it)
--- madison

I believe in God! Don't fuck with him! You'll lose.
--- "Anon"

I believe in God because he gave me life. Without him breathing life into me,I would not be here today.
--- kerline laveaux

I beleive in God, but not the Catholic version of God. I am a Celtic Wiccan and I beleive that there is a God and a Godess and also other spiritual deities. I am not a Satanists or what some people may call a sinner. I do not try to convrt anyone and I do not want anyone to convert me. Thank you for your time. Blessed Be.
--- Preston Regalado

I have heard God speak to me, but before that, I just knew.
--- "Anon"

I get asked this question a lot and my response is how do you know there isn't a God? i mean we belive in air and we can't see that. I am only 14 but i don't understand how people can think that there isn't a God. I mean how else did we get here? if it was through evolution well who meah the cell we evolved form? who made the big bang? someone must of and God is the only explanation!

--- Amy

Crazy but true!I am ASOLUTLEY certain that there is a God, because I have delt with and experienced evil. I'm not going into great detail or anything, but I grew up in a christian enviorment, church on Sundays, graduated from a private christian school. I was totally rebellious all my life though, and at one point in time was seriously engulfing myself in witchcraft, mind power, tarot cards, you name it. I thought I had control of it until the devil and his spirits decided that they wanted to control me, and did not want to return my soul, peace of mind, my life became a living nightmare. I could not sleep, I thought I was having encounters with demon spirits while sleeping. I even heard voices during the day, and when I decided that I could not take it anymore, I turned to God. I had to have a preacher and people from my moms church pray over me and cast them out. It was a struggle because my faith was so low, I didn't think I could ever have control over my mind ever again. I had to say the prayer of warfare hourly, blast christian music throughout the house, hang crosses everywhere, carry around little prayer cards. Even when I first reached out for help I called my mother and told her I needed help, I heard a bunch of henious voices come right over the phone during our conversation, laughing at me in a screachy tone. There is plenty more I have experienced, but I will cut this short.. All I have to say is God has restored my life, and thanks to his great mercy has forgiven me for turning the other way and given me back my life. I can't stress it enough how ignorant it is to try and deal with the other side. There is no deal. When the devil wants you, he doesn't give up easy. I hope noone is ever as foolish enough to ever put themselves in that type of situation. Never bargain with the devil~! It's not a joke!
--- A believer

Sorry to post again. I just want Ezek to know I have kept up my end of the bargain. I have been reading Hume.
I don't know why, but this verse made my skin crawl
"The unknown causes are still appealed to on every emergence; and in this general appearance or confused image, are the perpetual objects of human hopes and fears, wishes and apprehensions"
The man is obviously brilliant, and I am gleaning a lot from his writings, I just don't like my apprehensions defined, I guess.

--- Aslan

Ezek! Please go to the other forum! I'm looking for you:-) I want to hear about your holiday. Even if you didn't have a chance to read CS Lewis. I trust that you will when you can.
(an aside, for anyone tempted to check out rotten.com, please prepare yourself for images your mind won't soon forget. In laymen's terms, it's gross. I don't want to describe anything, I just want to warn you. I last saw it 2 years ago, and the images are crystal clear in my mind. I couldn't forget them if I wanted to. And I do want to.).
End of disclaimer. My work here is done.
--- Aslan

there is a god and his son is Jesus. this has been provenby the bible and also in artifacts and history. if you could prove there is no god beyond douth ten you might convince me

--- artie

Havin been raised in a christian home and going to church all of my life it is hard to imagine that there are really people out there who don't believe in God.I can tell you for a fact that He is REAL!I have seen people with my own eyes that were healed by God,a woman with skin cancer that just suddenly came off during a service, a woman who had been repeatedly diagnosed with AIDS who went to her doctor after being prayed for and was told that she no longer had AIDS....I can hear you saying"yeah right!"but what reason would I have for lying to you?My salvation is not effected one way or the other by what others believe, only by what i believe.As for the questions about why there has been no parting of seas and other such miracles, well, when have any of you needed a river parted?But i am quite certain that if you did it would happen.So many questions have been asked...why did HE do this?,why doesn't He do that?That is simple...read the Bible and find out.It isn't a big mystery. the answers are all there in black and white (and sometimes red if you have a red letter edition:)What do you have to lose by giving Him a chance to do a miracle in your life?
--- "Anon"

Ezekiel, Aslan -- I very much enjoyed your exchange. I hope to read more of your experiences here.

Ezekiel, you say you tried my experiement. What happened?
--- Believer

Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

For those who question their faith or doubt his Grace, you need to watch "Left Behind: the Movie". Where will you spend eternity?

Me, I will be with my Savior and Lord forever.

--- "Anon"

When things get to the point there is nowhere else to go, a prayer is what makes things right again. The thought there is no God, to me, is a definate key to the firey gates of hell.
--- "Anon"

How anyone can look around at this beautiful world and all the everyday blessings we receive and not believe in our Lord, Jesus Christ, is beyond me. Just knowing that He is my Saviour and that He hears my prayers, makes living in this sin filled world much easier. I just wish that people would not be so quick to blame Jesus for any misfortunes that they encounter. Remember that Satan is powerful,too, though not as powerful as God. He causes lots of bad things to happen for which Christ is blamed.
--- Holly

OUCH! I can't believe I forgot the most obvious CS Lewis essay that may catch your interest Ezek. It's called 'The case for Christianity'.
I guess this is where I should insert 'as a Christian I'm not perfect, just forgiven'. But I won't insult your intelligence that way.
Sorry again
--- Aslan

Yes, he did write the Chronicles of Narnia. I would certainly suggest Mere Christianity. that's a good one. However, I feel as if it may contain arguments you have heard and sorted through for yourself (could be wrong, I hate to assume things about people on-line) It's a fantastic book. The one that really sticks out to me for you is God in the Dock:Essays on Theology and Ethics. Of course, if you wanted more of a story you could pick up The Great Divorce. For tragedy read A Grief Observed (CS Lewis found the love of his life late in life, and lost her not too much longer. For more on that check out Surprised by Joy..her name was Joy.) The film Shadowlands is based on him in his later years. What works by David Hume do you suggest? I look forward to reading him.
--- Aslan

Hey Ezek, I'll cut you a deal. I will give you my word to read David Hume, if you give me your word to read Irish thinker CS Lewis. He has many works to choose from, and is by far my favorite author. What do you think?
BTW, I think your posts are very intelligent. I truly think you will like CS Lewis, even if you don't agree with him. He was one of those 'most brilliant thinkers' who doesn't make you feel stupid when you read his writings.
Glad you had cheerful holidays.
--- Aslan

I strongly believe that Jesus Christ is God. I believe the Bible, and find a personal relationship with God. He has answered many of my prayers. He guides me and allows me to sense his presence. He is very alive.
--- jack

In Spring 2000, I was going through a very depressing phase of life. I am 20 years old, I don't smoke, and I don't drink alcohol. I have always wanted to be an honest person and live an honest life. But during that particular time, I didn't like myself at all. For some reason, I had very low self-esteem. My self-esteem was so low that I could not even look at my own reflection in the mirror. I couldn't see anything about me that is beautiful, or for that matter, worth living for.
I had been suicidal in my mid-teens, and God was there to pull me through it. I remember going to bed feeling melancholy....my tears were soaking into my cotton pillow. I cried so much that my eyes were puffy and pink. I prayed desperately. I said, "Lord, I know there is a reason why I am alive. Please, God, give me a reason for living." So I went to bed and then when it was really late at night....so dark that everyone else in my house was asleep, something nudged me to wake up. I woke up, and looked at my bedroom window. I looked up at a sky that I never really gave a chance to look at. At that moment, I gained an admiration once again for life because there in the sky I saw this star that twinkled brightly and shined like never before. That was the first time I saw that star, and for some reason, I felt that someone was watching over me. And then I knew that no matter what happens, I know that God is there. I'm not saying that life is 100% perfect now since I believe in God, but what I am saying is that life is a whole lot more worth living now because I know that there is a God that I can pray to and depend upon to deliver me from my times of depression and sickness and low self-esteem.
Thank you for reading.
--- Marlynne Boyer

As I read thru these articles, on both sides, I see some of you seemed to be bonding with one another, in seach of truth. This is a good thing. Even the non-believer that make comments, are letting there inner spirts be justified in there own way. Isn't this part of GOD's graces to allow us to make our own decisions? I beleive so. As many others I have fallen from the manly made chuches. I believe the true church is one's inner self.
A quote from Joe Clark that has inspired me, "God is Great! God is Wonderful! But God will not do for you, what you must and should do for yourself!!

moore2508
--- "Anon"

Ezek. have you done what Believer suggested? I'm curious. Aslan
--- Aslan

Wait a second Ezekey, first off, as I gather it, this side of the discussion is supposed to be reserved for believers. I am one of those. Your responses should certainly be on the other side of the page there.

Okay, now that we have those conditions straightened out, I'm only interested in addressing one of your points. You don't seem to think that God steps in "every now and then" to affect things these days. And surely I agree that we don't seem to have the kind of pyrotechnics we used to get out of the Big Guy, like seas parting or floods covering the face of the earth but I'd say there are things in every each and every persons life that are indeed divine miracles. Even yours Ezeke.

How can I prove it? Well, it's simple. I'll let you do it. I'm being serious and you will have to play along but I hope for the sake of discussion you will allow a little experiment.

Anyone who wants to know if there's a God only has to ask. And the answer is the miracle. It's that simple.

I can hear you now, "Yeah, yeah, sure sure, Okay, I'll bite: HEY GOD, DO YOU EXIST???" You might shout it.

That's not the way to ask. Your gonna have to get quiet and sincere for this one. Find yourself a reasonably private, quiet place where you can feel comfortable just sitting. Rest your hands on your legs and close your eyes and just feel the silence. Take some deep breaths and release them slowly. Relax. You are, after all, preparing yourself to talk to God. If you were even meeting the Governer of your state, or the President or even the President of the company you work for you might take a moment to collect yourself. This is all you are doing by calming yourself with the sitting and the breathing. Just collecting yourself. It's not mumbo jumbo, it really works.

Okay, so, sit for a few minutes and relax and collect yourself and let your thoughts come and go as they might. It will feel strange because we are so used to either doing something, or being entertained, that just sitting and breathing can seem daunting. But just breathe. If you are uncomfortable, acknowledge your discomfort and let it go. If you feel silly, acknowledge it and let the thought go. Concentrate on your natural breath in the silence.

Now, with all sincerity, if you really want to know if there's a God: Ask. God, are you with me?

That's all. If you like, repeat the question a few times in your mind and then wait in the silence for an answer.

You'll see the Miracle, Ezekial. Try it.

--- Believer

Okay, for those of you who haven't fallen asleep yet..

To Terry,

A touching story, and you are a true convert. I won't even attempt to influence you, as you're beliefs are too firmly based on the intangible.

To Kate:
A very nice reasoning, which is what is professed by most religious followers. It has a very good grounding and logic.
However, its still subject to a few fundamental loopholes imho.

Again, creation, i'm not touching, not because I'm wrong, but because, no one is right.
God is omnipotent? On what do you base this? Again, for argument's sake I'll let that go.

Ah, now I have to love your next point, its where all religious debates should begin and end. God made us all in his image, so 'if we are flawed', what does that make him? Sorry, I coudln't resist that.

But what is love? What indeed is perfect love?
I've heard of that motto, and its snappy and used by Christians a hell of a lot. But remember - its just a motto! No more than a quote, and certainly not espoused by anybody actually in the bible.

Freedom of Choice! Thank you, for bringing up another important issue. Its a pleasure to debate on logic for once :) God has a policy of non-interference so they say. But does the devil also? The devil can do whatever he wants, but we do not see signs of satanic manifestation everywhere do we? Unless of course you believe the quote 'The Devil's greatest trick, was to convince everyone he did not exist'.

I digress, freedom of choice, is what the people in the old testament did not have. With God stepping in every now and then to throw a few plagues, part oceans, and otherwise play with humanity, he manifested himself in many ways, and altered our freedom of choice. Why does he not do so now? Is it because he made a mistake when he came down in the past? But he's omnipotent, he doesn't make mistakes. Oops.

I love this subject and I could go on, but I'll move on. Does God love everybody? Well, he obviously created us all, so he should. What about animals? What about all those who have no conception of his existence?

Imagine, that you were born in an Asian country. Or even on a deserted island. You would never know of the bible, you would never know of Jesus. In fact, you would probably create your own gods, such as the Ancient Greeks did. Now if you have no idea of God, how can you possible be saved? You can't! Bang, freedom of choice disappears again!

Thank you :)

Now, please someone, come up with some reasonable arguments against this, and I am more than willing to listen!
Freedom of choice and perfect love! Now those are topics!

--- Ezekiel 25:17

So many posters, so little time.
I did look at this website, which does an adequate job at deconstructing the falsities of the bible, altho it could be a little more structured
http://home.att.net/~j-buckner/toughanswers.html

However, let me start in chronological order to all the believers.

To Aslan:
I'll address the most pressing issues you raised as there were a few, if i miss any you, pls repost.

Can praying help? I suppose it can. So can drugs, love, and tv. If you want happiness, lower your standards. Praying sounds like a bad relationship. You ask for things, you don't get them, or not in the way you ask for, and you still keep doing it again and again.

To be honest with you, I can think of numerous ways more poignant then sending your own son down to die to save humanity. If you're going to have free will, why send a son down to influence humanity? If you're not going to have free will, go on "Show me the miracles!".

In this day and age, we see people do the impossible all the time. Lifting trucks, sleeping on beds of nails, amongst others. If any of them proclaimed themselves as a child of God, no one would believe them. Yet, when suddenly we get a piece of literature, centuries old, with no hope of corroboration, then hey presto, we must believe every word, despite the inconsistencies. People are no more reliable in their testimony in the past than they are today.

(to be continued)

--- Ezekiel 25:17

If there is a creation, there must be a creator. It's that simple. Now, the question of God's nature... Here's what I believe: God is omnipotent, not that sappy happy chicken soup for the soul junk. The reason that God likes us flawed humans is because we are his creation,of which "he is proud",and consequently he loves us. Not human love--perfect love.
If God loves us so much, why are there so many people suffering right now? Why is there so much hatred? Shouldn't God make everybody happy? The answer goes back to God's love. Perfect love. Have you heard the motto 'If you love someone, let them go, and if they come back to you, then they are yours'?
If God made us but did not grant us the freedom of choice, then his love would merely be a farce. You and I hold our freedom of choice very dearly, and God knows how important that freedom is. He loves us enough to make our own decisions, whether they be good or bad. And sometimes our bad intentions affect other people. That is how many of our current problems arose.
These bad decisions, of course, sadden God, who wishes for us to have a joy and knowledge-filled existance, and He tries to help us out whenever He can. He has a toll-free 24/7/365 prayer number and an arsenal of angels to help guide us on his path, and by accepting him in your heart, it is easier to handle life's tougher situations.
I personally believe in GOD and I believes that he loves eveyone. Those things may sound far-fetched, but I believe. Maybe I'm a minority, but that doesn't mean I have to be wrong. CHristianity is a wonderful thing if you try to be sincere and non-judgemental. God loves us all and in his eyes, we are all priceless--no one better than anyone else.
--- i-kate

At the biggest turning point in my life I had to reach out for something. I know what I had tried before and had got no where. I hit the floor on my knees and was determined to spend the rest of the day and night there praying to someone. I completely surrendered. It was like I went to sacrafice myself. I no longer want to live. I said to God let me die because I did not know how to live. But if there is a reason for me to live you have to show me how to live. Completely exhausted I fell into a deep sleep. I woke the next morning like I was in a place I have never known before. Happy joyous and free. Free from myself. Then goose bumps just washed over me and I felt the presents of something that I can not explain. After a moment of elation I realized that God had decieded to let me live and was going to show me how. Since that day I have never walked alone or felt affraid. Today God is everything to me and I realize that he loves me and you more than we can ever begin to explain. So the next time that you are feeling good and you just break out in goose bumps for no reason just think how God showed me his presents and ask yourself if maybe he is talking to you.
--- Terry

One of the people who dropped a message into the non-believing side of this thing wrote that they didn't believe in God because God hadn't saved their brother from getting killed.

To that person I say, "I'm very sorry for your loss." My sister, who was nearly a twin to me, died suddenly and tragically and horribly when I was twenty two and she was a few years older than me.

At the time I was so far from any thought of God that I didn't even blame Him. I just didn't give Him a thought.

But years later, as I came to believe, I was able to look back on losing my sister and see it in a larger perspective.

I hope in time you will be able to look back on this tragedy in your own life and see it as another piece in an even larger picture.
--- Old School

Sorry for the disjointed post below. I tried to cut and paste Ez's message to Old school, but apparently it didn't translate on this board. So if you want the message below to make sense you're gonna have to re-read his, then try to make sense of mine. Sorry again.
Aslan
--- Aslan

You are right on bro

It's often referred to as the breakdown of the family in my circles. In the 80's many more divorces happened than in the 60's and 70's, and single parents working for rent money meant kids sitting in front of TV's, which translates into antisocial adults in the year 2000. Very different than when I was growing up. We all played outside (Way before Ninetendo/Sega hit the scene) Usually one mother on the block kept a watchful eye on all of us, and it varied daily. Heck, these women had permission from all of the mothers to give us a whack on the butt if we needed it.

I agree and disagree there. I believe in the Bible, which calls for a somewhat organized group to gather together and support one another. Don't get me started on the mainstream Catholic religion (though I do know some awesome Catholics, who are good people) I'm not a fan of diefying one figure, and looking to him for guidence, unless He goes by the name Christ. But that is MY belief, and strictly something I have to live by. After all, on judgement day I won't be anyone's attorney but my own.

Wouldn't that be considered a haven? A safe place? An asylum if you will? Isn't that what unconditional love should provide?

We all have people close to us with faults. It's human nature. Not 'seeing' and 'overlooking' are 2 different things. Seeking approval is also human nature.

Does the sun not rise? Are the mothers barren? You are looking at the sky through a straw. It's impossible for you to see the blue, all you see is a piece of a cloud. It's so much bigger than that.

All of us can post our stories. It's all relative. I'm sorry for what you have gone through, but I too have known sorrow, and situations that ended in disaster that were beyond my control. Can praying help? In my experience, yes. Did it resolve the situation? Not in the way I wanted. But praying helped. I learned early on that God is not a 'quicker pick me upper'. He is not here for me. In fact, the opposite is true.

To be honest with you, I think sending your only child to be killed by your own creation, in order to wash away their sins and keep your own word that only the holy will enter Heaven is pretty worthwhile.

--- Aslan

maybe
--- "Anon"

Do you really have to ask, Chris? I don't think so.....
--- gimmie afreakn break

Look to the right.
--- Brooke

Ah Stacy,

I must say you amuse me :)

At least old-school i can empathise with, and I can clearly understand why he has found faith.
However, your arguments are not worth the time it took you to write them down.
1. "I believe in God, becoz he helps me and my family"
Uhm, yes, hard to debate that, as we don't know what special favours he has performed for you. But since he seems so helpful, why don't u also ask for a tattslotto win, a new car and a holiday in tahiti, pray for that, win, and get back to me.

But then again, God works in mysterious ways, and he probably thinks you're better off not having these things as these will spoil your innocent naivete. Etc Etc Etc...typical religious dogma.

2. If we speak against God, that is the only unforgiveable sin, and we'll all going to hell.

Do you know why Churches love that comment?
Also the "Ours is the only true faith" - a la the Pope - "Rest of you can go burn in hell".

This is because disbelief, and other religions steal the faith and contributions from the naive members of that faith. Perish forbid, that speaking one's mind and using their free will should be a right every human being possesses. God will instead choose to censure us to ensure we don't make reasonable comments, which i guess kinda defeats the entire free will principle.

Oh well who needs free will anyway? or freedom of speech for that matter?

--- Ezekiel 25:17

For all you non-belivers..Gods word says,that if you speak against his spirit,that is the only sin not forgiven so id think twice before i wrote something in the 'RED'..To all who do choose to not believe cause god didnt answer a prayer or for some reason know this.GOD ANSWERS ALL PRAYERS,even if you think he has not!
--- Stacy

I believe in GOD because,he has proved hiself to be real to me in many ways,whenever im alone he lets me know he is there with me.he has been the healer for my children,i have seen many miracles in my families lives..and i wouldnt belive it happend any other way than by GOD.
--- Stacy

TO ASANQUE-EZEKIEL:

I would agree to your strong and well defended points about the existence of God if I had a personal expectation of being able to understand God and his will. I chuckled when I read that the you believe the job that God is doing is "underachieving at best." Sometimes I say that God is underachieving, too -- especially when things aren't going my way. But I have to acknowledge that a kind and loving omnipotent and omnipresent being is well beyond the ken of my reckoning.

You mentioned those poor Africans who have never heard of "your" God. I am not a big subscriber to "my God, your God" theology. Perhaps that's why I felt drawn to this type of forum. I trust that Africans have a God that works for them, too. May I refer you to the books of Elechi Amadi, published by an excellent English publisher: Heineman. These are novels of pre-colonial life in Nigeria that will show you what a full spiritual tradition Africans developed before the West showed up.

In the following words you summed up the last ten years of my life: "No longer are we joined in tight knit communities, sharing common goals, beliefs and adversity. We now live in a fragmented society, where it is easier to be alone and isolated whilst surrounded by millions of others." This isolation in the midst of millions that you mention can feel worse than just being alone. It is so hard to reach out to people. I am not a big supporter of organized religion either, but if having a cup of coffee with a member of a congregation at the end of a service is going to draw people back into contact with one another, I'm in favor of it. It is nearly impossible to objectify someone when you are openly and honestly conversing with them -- and I believe we are more inclined to kindness toward people than toward objects.

--- Old School

To Old School:

We are members of the 21st century, a time of greater spiritual desolation and emptiness than any other era in history.

No longer are we joined in tight knit communities, sharing common goals, beliefs and adversity. We now live in a fragmented society, where it is easier to be alone and isolated whilst surrounded by millions of others.

That is where religion comes into play. As we progress through our lives, we come to a stage where we wonder 'why are we here?' and 'what is the meaning of life?'. There are no correct answers. In referring to your previous hedonistic life style in your band, I don't believe that hedonism and living for pure self pleasure is the answer either. What is the answer? I don't profess to know either, but I know it isn't organised religion.

What organised religion provides is a sense of community. A group of friendly, sociable people willing to accept you no matter what your past misdeeds or current faults. Many of us in today's society are easily misled by the shallowness of society's goals in seeking wealth and personal selfish fulfilment. It is fantastic that there are groups of people out there who are good enough to care about us all. What this does is convey to you a feeling of satisfaction and well being which you have rarely experience, no matter what idolatry and fake praise you received in the past. It also makes it easier to believe the fiction which is portrayed to you. Sensory impressions are always far easier to believe when you want to believe. E.g. Your girlfriend/boyfriend may have faults which you just don't see, because you like them.

Overall, a compassionate God, may help those who ask for his/her aid. But, what about those poor, deprived people in 3rd World Countries, in other foreign nations that have never heard of your God? They do not receive an opportunity to seek his/her aid, because of their ignorance. For this they are punished?

You say you have undergone suffering? Try living each day watching your family members starve to death, try living your life pitifully surviving on scraps of food. Imagine yourself living in any of the war-torn countries split apart due to religious differences, and ask yourself, whether praying to God for help, is going to resolve any of this?

God may provide a sense of fulfillment, but unless he does something worthwhile for the millions and proves his/her existence in a more tangible way, then he/she is underachieving at best.
--- Ezekiel 25:17

TO ASANQUE-EZEKIEL:

The points you make below all seem to hinge on the fact that we can not KNOW with our minds and our intellects if there really is a God.

What if just as your fingers can not smell, your intellect can not know God as a fact.

I just want to establish my credentials as a singer in a hedonistic, drug taking, psuedo-intellectual athiest punk rock/industrial band in the early 1980's before I continue. So in terms of COSMIC doubt I am qualified to say "Been there, done that." I would follow it up with this: It didn't work for me.

Before I became involved with a spiritual fellowship of wounded humans turning to a power greater than themselves for simple assistance, my life was misery. Lonely, isolated, cooler than cool.

Before I came to trust in the guidance of a loving God I spent more time worrying about what YOU thought of me than I did living. I am an ARTIST, I would think. A great artist living out my dream of SELF DETERMINATION and you were darn well going to know about it and hear about it and love me.

And maybe you did.

But I still felt empty inside.

When I first opened my ears to listen about this whole God thing, the emptiness began to be filled with something that I can not describe to you with my intellect. The brain is just another organ. It has a tough job to do, but when push comes to shove, it can't tell you if there's a God.

Walking into a room full of people who already know that there's a God and feeling your emptiness, loneliness and isolation drop away from you like a dirty change of clothes can tell you that there's a God.

ASANQUE-EZEKIEL -- I wonder that you will say that the Los Angeles punk scene of the 80's burnt away my two good neurons. Go ahead and say that if you have NEVER suffered. But I can tell you what suffering is and I was lead out of suffering because I asked God for help.

You mentioned that there can't possibly be a compassionate God if there is so much suffering in the world. Try this: What if all the suffering people have to do is humbly ask God for help? That's all I did and He/She/It helped me.

I asked.

--- Old School

To Mary Michael:

You've fallen into the trap of many who believe in religious dogma.

1. We have nothing to lose by believing

That's how religions all around the world attract followers. The prospect of death, unending oblivion and darkness is a scary proposition to us all, and to avoid this we attempt to believe in anything which makes this prospect more tempting. Its a great gimmick, because even if they're wrong, you're not going to come back and complain.
E.g. Let me sell you my secret potion for $9.95, guaranteed perpetual blissful afterlife, with a $10,000 money back guarantee, if you don't get it. I don't believe in doing things because you have nothing to lose, do things because you have something to gain. Think about it.

2. Bad things happen to make us stronger. Part of God's unknowable plan.

Life is a struggle through adversity. It was never meant to be perfect and sometimes it is better for us to grow through bad experiences. However, most of us in our selfishness ignore the world-wide picture. How many people in Ethiopia and other 3rd world countries die miserably with no hope in the future? War, pain, suffering is prevalent everywhere, and I defy the belief that any of this is really necessary, if there is a compassionate God out there.

3. Why evil is left unchecked by God?

Again the free will principle comes into play.
Also, the principle that bad things will happen to bad people and good things to good etc.
Again, part of religion's main selling point. If your neighbour does something illegal and profits from it, you would hope that they get caught by the law and prosecuted. If they don't you would hope that by society's standards they are punished in some way. However, when they are not you wonder why? Well hopefully, God will give them a good spanking when they die, again, hope springs eternal. Have you ever considered the fact millions of people do not even know about God? Millions commit acts which would offend Christianity and will they be punished because they did not know what they were doing? And again, how can there possibly be an argument of free-will for good and evil, when God and religious doctrines vary so widely that no-one knows what is going on?

4. What created this world? Chance? God saving certain people?

Now, I don't know all of you out there who have claimed some entity saved you from peril. I won't presume to know how this world came into being. But I will spout some philosophy for you.

When you're about to call an old friend who you haven't talked to for some time, and miraculously he called you first, some would call that coincidence or miracle. However, the reason this occurs is most likely because you both heard the same song on radio, saw some program on tv that reminded you of the other.

Coincidences mount up, people are more willing to talk about these amazing facts to others, and a whole collection of wild stories occurs. Of course, it is not nearly so interesting when the other friend does not call you, and thus you never discuss it. In this wide world, hundreds of coincidences occur, and when put together statistically it can prove quite imposing, but it still doesn't deny the fact of coincidence.

If God, did save your life personally, I'll say congratulations. But until he starts saving everyone in need, I'll say he is an underachiever.

Lastly, if God did create the world, which God was it? Christianity? Hindu? Buddha? etc. etc etc. I won't bother arguing something which neither side can coherently prove.
--- Ezekiel 25:17

Having a personal relationship with God is an individual matter. Do not, and I repeat, do not place any preacher, priest, or evangelist on a pedestal. There is only one that we should worship and glorify, and that is Christ Jesus. Too many people forget this. They hang on every word that some great evangelist has to say without confirming it with the Bible. We are to read our Bibles each and every day. Only then will we realize that there indeed is a God! In man's selfish efforts to make the Bible say what he wants it to say the Word has become distorted. To say that there is no God is no different than saying that we do not exist. It is the same as saying that the universe and everything in it just happened by chance! Even secular scientists won't go that far. Science cannot support the theory of "chance happening". As a matter of fact, the more the scientists learn the more they realize how little they know. Any credible scientist will tell you this. Therefore, science cannot tell you that there is no God, however, it can more often tell you that there is a God...if only it is truthful with itself. I'm not going to tell you to look at all the birds, fish, animals, and the beauty of nature. This you have no doubt already done on your own. If you believe that all this just happened by "chance" then you will undoubtedly believe anything. Everything that has been created has had a Creator. If you don't believe this to be true then what do you say when you look at a television set, an automobile, a building, etc? Do you say, "No one created that"? Of course you don't. How then can we look at the cosmos and say, "No one created that"?
--- "Anon"

My faith in God is restored atleast once every day. All you have to do is look out your window,and you know our world was no accident! Besides the miracle of nature,there is the fact we all fail to remember, too often.If we would live just as the Bible tell's us to? We would have, few problem's! No need for abortion,because no illigitamit kids. No world hunger without greed standing in,the way! And, no need to concern ourselves with trusting eachother,if we all, truely atleast tried to, love our neighbor, as ourselves? Guy's like Fallwell and Baker,I believe? Are the ones, that will pay? Just like the priest,guilty of sexually abusing young kids! Not only,are they destroying those lives? There using God's name (power)to get away, with it,thereby turning alot of people against him,before they even know one truth, about the real God,and his hopes, for them!
--- rob nickel

Ok, so I'm a windbag! ::grins:: stipulated. I as much as admitted it myself. But didn't I make at least a couple good points? C'mon, man, don't just call me names, pick my logic apart!
--- Mary-Michael

What we are here calling "god" is not only the christian way of believe. I can not simply beleve that only fate has brought us here that this carbon and water just ran together in an accident to create what we are today. I also don't believe that there is a man looking down on us marking everything we do as wrong or right, waiting to judge us upon our death. But look at the beauty that surrounds you. I simply can not believe that we stand alone on this earth, that we drift alone without a force here with us. Somedays it's as simple as the wind calling you to turn the other way or the sunshine in your eyes. Other days its bumping into another person and making a connection. Maybe momentary, maybe for a lifetime. You can't tell me that randomness is all this is. Maybe its fate, but we are not alone.
--- Jennifer

I have experienced many tramatic experiences with mireaculeoys,unanswered results. I have always put my trust and confidence in the one and only spiritual power that performs and keeps his promises based on my commitments to keeping his laws.
I have proven through experience Gods way works for me, But the other spirit who God has given Athority over this world for a designated time, which is rapidly drawing to a end, has never benefitted me in any way except trouble.
--- C.E.Bailey

MARY-MICHAEL is a wind-bag.
--- J the Babe

Thou art God
--- STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND

IF I COULD READ YOUR MIND, THEN MAYBE I WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL YOU IF THERE IS A GOD WITH EVIDENCE. BUT I CAN'T. I AM WHAT I AM, AND THATS AN IDEA CREATED FOR SOMETHING.
IF LOVING AND LIFE MAKES YOU HAPPY, THEN LIVE ON BROTHERS AND SISTERS. IF HATING AND KILLING FLOAT YOUR BOAT, TRY SECLUDING YOURSELF AND MAKE YOURSELF ALONE. ALL YOU NEED ARE FEET AND LEGS. LISTEN TO THE VOICES AND LISTEN TO YOUR CHOICES.
IF YOU STILL FEEL THAT WAY, I GUESS THATS WHAT YOU ARE...
DEAD.
--- 'ANON'

God might be emptyness, but true empty is the one who doesn't believe in anything... if you are lifefull, it doesn't matter if you call it God or whatever, you do have hope, you do have future and love perfection of the sky... so you believe, even if you pretend you don't.

I believe in God because just blowing him up would make believe in nothing, and get lost in this made up mind world... I've done it before, and realised that even if you decide not to believe; when you know who God is, you always come back to Him.
--- Jarkin

i could choose to not believe in god just like i choose to believe
why do i choose to believe in god? it gives sense to what happens in my life, legates sacredness to silence, helps me relax, jumpstarts my imagination, encourages me to treat others well - we are all one, etcetera. and i could keep on and on...
--- Renée

I have never seen a doghouse evolve into a townhouse or into a 3 bedroom house. These buildings, including the doghouse, were constructed. They were designed and built by a designer. The same is true with our universe, our planet, ourselves. We have been beautifully made.

--- Ann Non

I was saved from a car wreck and the only thing that could have save me was God.
--- Amazed

AND ONE MORE THING!!!! If I'm wrong, and there is no God, what do I lose? Nothing! What, so I didn't get to commit sins with a clear conscious? I wasn't going to do most of that stuff anyway, so it doesn't matter. Heck, if there's no afterlife, I won't even know I was wrong b/c I'll be DEAD. There won't even be mild embarrassment. Yet if an atheist (not someone who dislikes organized religion; I dislike organized religion! but a true athiest) is wrong and there IS a God, then according to most faiths it means eternal damnation, which by all accounts is not a pleasing alternative! Hedge your bets, folks!! YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BY BELIEVING!!!

Ok... I'm done now... I'll shut up, I promise!
--- Mary-Michael

Sick of my speechifying yet? HAH! Hold on, b/c I'm going to do it again.

AND ANOTHER THING... I know many people lose their faith because of bad things happening, things that seem to have no reason, like the death of a loved one (or a beloved kitten.) Please remember that this world is not the permanent one. To lose someone here doesn't mean they're gone forever. And no, God is not here to protect you from everything bad that happens. As I said earlier, God made the rules that govern this world. If the rules dictate that a certain person contracts a fatal disease, He's not going to break the rules for one person. Why would he? Like I said, death is not the end of everything. What God will do is be there to comfort the people left behind, if you will let Him. Sometimes even the pain we feel is necessary, for us to grow. Imagine if your parents had shielded you from every possible disappointment. You might be happier, but you wouldn't be as good of a person. Rather than thinking, God doesn't love us enough to protect us, I believe God loves us enough that he can stannd to let us go through the pain necessary for growing up. (Yes, I know I'm writing all this from the viewpoint of Christianity, and it may not apply to everyone who reads this. What can I say, I'm Christian! I don't know how to write except as a christian.)

As for why people are allowed to commit evil unchecked.. this is the best explanation I've heard so far. (Credit the Latter-Day Saints): To the innocent who are hurt, their suffering will be counted in heaven and they will be rewarded. But the evildoers must be allowed to reveal themselves as what they are. Everyone is good when they are denied free will, but God wants us to choose the path of righteousness freely. (Everything makes a lot more sense when you keep in mind that there is another, much more permanent life after this one!)
--- Mary-Michael

Replying to a much-earlier comment...

Yes, it's true that sometimes very intelligent people have trouble believing in God. In A god, I suppose I should say. After all, the more intelligent you are and the more education you receive, the more scientific, rational explanations you hear that account for the wonders of the universe without having to fall back on some mystical "Creator."

Well and good, except... except these theories DO fall back on some unexplainable force. They call it "chance," and it's used to explain most things that God used to be given credit for. We've exchanged an intelligent, caring supreme power for an unintelligent impartial one - and I for one don't believe it was a good trade. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense, for one thing.

Por ejemplo: let's look at evolution. Now, my being a Christian doesn't make me unwilling to accept scientific fact; of COURSE I believe in evolution. Who wouldn't? (note: i do indeed know who wouldn't, some of them are my friends. To you, I say sorry. No offense intended, i just think you're rather silly! :0) ) But believing evolution happened is not to say that it's responsible for everything. Take, just as an example, the visual system. What spontaneously evolved first? Eyes? The nerves connecting the eyes to the brain? The part of the brain that interprets the signals? Why would one of those parts develop before the others? There would be no need for it, or no use for it. The only way it could conceivably have occured is if all three spontaneously developed simultaneously. Possible through pure chance? Why sure. Anything is possible. And the even more complex systems present in any living organism? Could they have developed by pure chance? Of course they could. But if you're going to tell me that they DID, that even given the billions of years this planet's been around, your system of pure chance has beaten those incredible odds that many times... well, all i can say is that I want you to roll my dice for me next time I go to Vegas, because you obviously have a better system of pure chance than I do! Personally, I think it is more likely, and ultimately more logical, to believe that there is someone in charge (singular or plural, male or female or neither or both, I'll leave up to you) who guided and probably still guides (slowly, veerrry slowly) the world through its evolution. A nudge here, a hint there, even (as Parke Godwin so eloquently put it) the occasional "boot in the evolutionary butt." (Among other things, explains why no one's been able to produce the missing link yet. Maybe there wasn't one.) I do count myself among the fairly intelligent ones (don't mind my ego, I know it's huge), and I even think I can now and again think scientifically. But rather than attacking my faith, my education has confirmed it. The more I learn, the more I know that science has not explained and cannot explain everything. Yet science vs. religion is not an either/or situation; if God created the world, He created the rules that go with it. It is entirely possible, even reasonable, to believe in a worldview that includes both science and God.
--- Mary-Michael

I find it funny you call Jane to task for her spelling, then you don't know how to spell religious.
As a Christian I forgive you.
--- Funny that

Jane you should pray for some help in spelling, I think you are referring to a wiggie board or something of the sort.

Strange that religeous folks can always relate the most minor of things to god.
--- anon

I just believe!
--- Corey

I believe in God.
I don't always believe in religion.

--- Amy

Saul, I was kidding - fortunately. Read about the girl who believes in God because she found her engagement ring in the trash can. Wonders never cease.
--- Jane

Jane, God doesn't prove himself like that. He doesn't have to. Try again.
--- Saul

When I was a little kid I had a white board, and one day I was curious to find out whether God really existed. So I took a blue marker when no one was watching and I wrote, "GIYEPPITMBPADITC" and then a circle, and the letters stood for "God If You Exist Please Prove It To Me By Putting A Dot In This Circle" and by the time I had finished drawing the little circle I saw that there was already a tiny black dot of eraser dust in the very center.

--- jane

I believe in God bcuz He is the one and only being that can save every1 from eternal damnation. I'm no preacher, but when I pray for something that I feel is really important or felt I strongly needed help with, and I prayed to God, It was answered.
--- Jessi

Sono un Italiano quasi credente!
http://utenti.tripod.it/diavolocane/
--- diavolocane

because without Christ I am nothing...
--- Billy
Texas99

I believe. But I also see why many find it hard to believe. There is so much hate, so much cynicism, so much disregard for fellow humans these days, it's hard to cling to that which is not seen. I do so because I know it's fact, yet I understand the other points. Faith is a leap. It's not the other way around. Believe it when you see it? Sometimes you have to believe to see. Yet I understand the points of those who argue.
--- Aslan

Flannery O'Connor wrote "...religion was essentially for those people who didn't have the brains to avoid evil without it. For people like herself, for people of gumption, it was a social occasion providing the opportunity to sing; but if she had ever given it much thought, she would have considered the devil the head of it and God the hanger-on."
I can only imagine how horrible I would be if I didn't beleive in God.
--- Jo

I looked in the mirror.
--- The Big Cheese

My belief in God is almost instinctual. I KNOW there is a God. I think that belief in a Higher Power is inate to human beings, and it takes work to suppress that and to say that there is no God. In fact, most Atheists I know will not say unequivically that there is no God. Most of them just say that they don't know. They don't believe, but they don't shut the door on the possibility either. I respect that. I believe that to suppress God-belief is to suppress an essential part of ourselves. Our spirits will be restless within us until we find that vital connection with our Higher Power. Atheists are not evil, they are just suppressing the spirit within them. They will not be at peace with themselves or the world until they open up to their spirt-selves. I extend my hand in friendship and love to all those who are honest seekers, but do not yet believe.
--- "Anon"

Wow Scott. I just read what you wrote. I don't have a long drawn out esay as to who I am or why. I'm just a believer in Christ. I wouldn't classify you as a 'nonbeliever'. I would just classify you as a fellow human. But your post seemed like you were mad. I would hope you wouldn't judge me because of my faith.
--- "Anon"

i'm going to post in this section even if i *am* a "non-believer" as we have so been dubbed. i just wanted to say that atheists/agnostics are born, not made. we're not "converted" as various other faiths do. perhaps i see your "God" as a sort of a Father who abandoned us. some guy who created life, saw his awful mistake, packed his bags, and bolted for the nearest wormhole, or whatever.

i'm not attacking you or your God. i'm very sorry if you're so anally retentive that you have to get all defensive. if you really do get very mad at this, then you most certainly are dreadfully insecure about your religion.

i personally don't believe in organized religion. faith isn't some club to join, with rules and initiations. faith is a feeling you have, that no one else has. God is your own, and no one else's. for me, God is the Cosmic Force. it's something in the center of the universe [may there be such a thing] that presents order. i believe that it currently has been tampered with, which explains why evil beats good and love doesn't conquer all these days.

if there's one thing to live by, it's this: "believe in whatever makes sense to you." -Nny, from JTHM, by Johnen Vasquez.
--- scott

The opposite of Love is not hate. It's indifference. True athiests won't post here, because they won't care about the discussion. I have no doubt God exists. Jesus was the ultimate rebel, read up on it. In a time when even uttering the word "God" would result in certain flogging, He went around saying He was 'God's Son'. Many times in my life I have had experiences that tought me of His existence, including being a Wiccan who was preached to by the Ouija board (no lie. It told me to neveer forget the Blood of the Lamb. I wasn't even the one with access to the board, I was the transcriber) The grandstanders are shameful. Oral Roberts going on and on about how God will kill him if he doesn't raise a certain amount of coin? Shameful. My God is not one of deadlines. I'm not going to preach to the non believers here,but then again, If you are here...are you sure you don't believe?
--- "Anon"

Not me but the Pope, in Isreal during a mass this week, 'heaven is for losers.' Shook me to the core that did.
--- Wymsey

I feel that the people who posted in the right-hand column ("Non-Believers")aren't necessarily against the concept of "god". More likely, they have issues with Christianity and organized religion.
Even "a.phillips" concedes that goodness must come from within and therefore hints at his/her own belief in an unseen order. ("Goodness" is a quality that cannot exist in chaos. Nor can evil.)
Even "devil worshippers" and other crazies technically believe in God. Scientists who study hydrogen, deep down inside, say to themselves, "Man, this shit is cool! If I weren't so damned smug, I'd have to acknowledge the existence of SOMETHING!"
So, really, the problem is with decrepit old hypocrites and born-again neighbours who tell us what to believe and why.
(Which, ironically, is exactly what Jesus himself railed against.)
An old fable teaches that the whole of the Bible can be summarized in one sentence, "Treat others the way you would like to be treated." And I think most religious people, regardless of their faith, can agree with that. (Including "a.phillips")
So skip Church, watch THE SIMPSONS, eat plenty of fiber, treat other people decently, and know that there is an unseen order to the universe.
Some folks call that God. (And no... No priest, rabbi, lama or grand wizard can pigeonhole Him/Her/x/It.)
--- czolgosz

I was convinced of the existence of God as the lies in my own life were exposed and I began to discover the liberation to be found in truth. I don't mean God's truth, just living in a day-today state of a desire for honesty - even when we fail in our desire and tell more lies!

Then it slowly dawned on me that there are as many Christians living lives of deceit as there are non-Christians. Perhaps even more if we take into account all the praying, confession of sin and references to lovng our neighbour while practising jealousy, sectarianiasm and carrying out/going along with social injustice. At the very least the lie comes out in just downright apathy towards the state of those in poverty and the environment.

So I've distanced myself from church. I've stepped into a vacuum, which is very disorientating after a life of preaching, teaching and evangelism. But I refuse to be a part of the lie of the church in western society. And my self-righteousness probably makes me the biggest liar of all!
--- Graham

I believe there is a God because when I pray to him for something, I almost always get what I want. I wanted very badly to find my diamond engagement ring which I had lost 3 weeks ago, and prayed constantly to find it. Well, yesterday, I found it in the garbage (of all places), because something (someone God?) told me to look there. What are the chances? There it was. There are many more reasons, but too many to go into.
--- Joanne

When I was about 9 years old I went swimming with my family. I became separated from my family and began to drown. No one was around me and I began to pray. I thought this was going to be my last day on the planet and I asked God to give me one more chance. Then I felt someone carrying me to the shore. There was no one there when I turned to see who had saved me. God is like feelings which you can't see but you can can feel.
--- keegan

As the words off song go, "You'll never know what it's like/You'll never know how wonderful if is/You'll never know what you're missing until the same thing happens to you." God exists. The Bible says so, my parents told me so, but I never believed it till I experienced him myself. It was in the lounge of a flat I shared with my uncle. I had just returned from lectures at the university and the whole house was suddenly filled with an awesome presence and before I knew it, I was down on my knees and crying. I opened my eyes in embarrassment, worried someone might have seen me crying. Hey, I could not let that happen. What will happen to my street cred? But I could not stop crying. I was 20 years old; it was the first time I was crying in my adult life, and I just could not stop crying. I had a picture of my smallness compared to this awesome presence; a realisation of my frailty in the face of His strength; an awareness of my sinfulness pitched against His righteousness. Suddenly, all those sermons I'd heard as a kid, all the Bible passages I'd read at Sunday school, all the stuff Mom and Dad taught us while growing up - they all became real. No kidding mate, God exists.
--- Ope

When I'm on a mountaintop soaking in the sunshine and breathing in the fresh air, I can't imagine that anything less than God created the beauty that surrounds me.

Someone wants me here, and that someone is God.
--- "Anon"

There was no big "event" that convinced me of the existence of God -- it just makes sense. The way the world works, the way the laws of science operate, the way the order and disorder of the universe fit together, everything points to the existence of someone or something in charge. I suppose it is possible that our incredibly complex universe was formed by pure chance, but it seems unlikely in the extreme. P.S. - I would love to discuss religion and beliefs with anyone who cares to email me.
--- Me

I've seen wild things happen too often not to believe that there is some sort of Great Spirit or whatever you want to call it, helping people. How many times have I been thinking about someone and they call in the next split second. That kind of stuff. Just little stuff but it happens over and over and over.

It works for me.
--- "Anon"

It's actually too long a story to write all of here but the short of it is this: I was pack packing with some friends in Sequoia National Park and I was climbing on a cliff face. I was about thirty or fifty feet above all these rocks below me and the fall would have surely killed me. I was eighteen years old and God had been rammed down my throat so hard that I had just thrown Him up. I was in complete rebellion. Well, when I was stuck on that cliff face and about to die, all my rebellion melted away pretty quick and I prayed: "Please God, Help me get down from here without dying." In that moment, I swear this is true, it was as though every hand hold and foothold on the cliff face LIT UP -- I could suddenly see exactly where to put my hands and feet so I could get down.

I'm a believer.
--- "Anon"

I'M NOT
click here

Kevin, that is a horrible thing to say. You're basically judging everyone who isn't a Christian by saying they either ONCE believed in God, and if they didn't, then that makes them sluts who have faith in nothing but carnal desires. Do you know exactly how hypocritical that is? Didn't your god tell you to love one another instead of judging them? Well, isn't that just great, maybe before you bash non-Christians you should think about what Christianity means to you.I'm Wiccan and I'm damn proud. What gives you the right to call anyone who isn't Christian a sex-worshipping heathen? Give me their number. I'd like to be able to judge people I've never met like that as well.
--- Lenore

I think my feelings about this would best be expressed through these lyrics by JOJ:

Hey there cracked God
(you're) you're looking older
(you're) you're looking older
cry on someone else's shoulder
pink dried up crippled Christ
try to take your own advice

NOW now I'm God
because God never loved me this much
NOW I'll play God
cause your God is just losing his touch

hey there rich God
(you're) you're looking distressed
(you're) you're looking distressed
buy a saint to clean up your mess
Temptation on my side
Devil got me a fat new bribe

NOW now I'm God
because God never loved me this much
NOW I'll play God
cause your God is just losing his touch

I can't breath
Save me
Sew the seed
Praise me

I never had faith in you
I'll never have faith in you
I'll never have faith in you
I'll resurrect myself

Hey there dead god
you're lost and jaded
you're lost and faded
you've become the sheep you hated
you're rotten to the core
Don't believe in you anymore

NOW now I'm God
because God never loved me this much
NOW I'll play God
cause your God is just losing his touch

--- Kai the Epileptic Polar Bear

I started to not believe in God when I turned Wiccan. Before then I was a silly little foolish child who believed there was a god who would talk to me. I used to sit there asking myself, God? If you are real, why don't you help me out sometime, eh? I knew that he might've been busy, but I asked him numerous times. And it never worked. I know you had to have faith in him, but I did...and now I lost it because I truly don't believe in a god. I also don't believe that somehow, a god is creating all of our lives and created the world. I prefer true facts than some lazy excuse not to use our brains. I like to think about stuff...not use the imaginary god as an excuse of being lazy. I also believe that we lead our own lives, live them the way we want. If I had a fate to live a long life and die of Cancer, screw it, I'll just slit my wrists right now just to prove it wrong. I don't mean this to be offensive to anyone, but tis part of the way I see life. But lets not get into that...
--- Me

i beive there is a god where is he?
--- anon

FIRST OF ALL,EVERY MAN KNOWS A MAN EJACULATES ONE OF THREE WAYS.)1)HE HAS SEXUAL INTERCOURSE.(2)HE MASTURBATES.(3)HE HAS A WET DREAM.SO WHO ARE THE PRIESTS KIDDING.ITS SO OBVIOUS THEY ARE SEX PERVERTS.IT IS A PROVEN FACT THAT BEING RAISED CHRISTIAN HINDERS INTELLIGENT MENTAL GROWTH.I BELIEVE AND WISH THAT ADOLF HITLER (WHOM HAD THE WRONG RELIGION BUT RIGHT IDEA)PERSECUTED THE CHRISTIANS JUST LIKE THE ROMANS .I SAY FUCK JESUS EVERY MORNING A REALLY RESENT BEIBG FORCED TO ATTEND CATACISM.ITS AN INOCCURATE CONCEPT THAT IS NOTHING BUT A SHAME AND GUILT BASED REKIGION STARTED BY THE STUPID SO LETS START KILLLING PRIESTS AND MOST OF ALL CRIMINILIZE RELIGION THANK YOU
--- LEO POMPEII

I do not see how there can be so many testaments to a single book. God did not write this great book we have named the Bible, I do not see why it has grown so important. Sure, it gives us something to place our faith in, but is it not wiser to place faith in mankind itself? A novel written and compiled by men has had so many errors and contradictions, it is hard to believe that it gives the basis of our existence. Also, God is one of the many that are believed to day, and most claim to have created the world. It is not that we all live on seperate planets and, by some way science cannot explain, nor our Bible, planes, but one earth. One single earth. Did these fifteen men or women each create a part of it? No. God is assumed to have created all of it. So are all of the others. It is a fault to have so many religions, but our freedom to place our judgement and belief to whatever we will. I do not believe in God, simply because there is no proof. Man wrote the book, man keep the faith, man claims, man kills, man contradicts, man opposes everything that those beliefs are placed upon. Have you ever met an angel? And if so, were you in your right mind or dillusional with depression and need for some holy figure because you feared your faith was failing you? Honestly, I do not know what I can trust, a handwritten and age-old book passed through the hands of a bunch of bias men and women preachers, or the ongoing science that drives our civilization to greatness, and yet, its own doom. It is easy to forecast science, it is impossible to predict the Apocalypse. The Mayans said it will be soon, our Bible never graced us with the security of a specific date. Mayans were neanderthals, we are idiots. Trust man, trust science, trust what you will.

-Written by a child.
--- Azrael.

No religious book nor religion could give a satisfactory answer to the questions in my mind. I have gone through koran, all hindu books and the bible. I ask one simple question. Why in all religious books asks to praise the God or the Almighty to get all fortunes and a place in heaven, like the rich people who donates money and food to find their names in golden colours (to be Praised). Is our God is so cheap ? In that case, mothers should be kept on the top rather than god at least THEY never asks any thing in return for her love and sacrifices to bring up a child.
--- nassar

:: DROPS PANTS AND MOONS ::
(________(__________)
--- God

First of all, why are people posting their posts more than once? I noticed that someone wrote sometime ago that there is nothing to lose if you believe in God and he doesn't exist but there is everything to lose if you don't believe in him and he exists. So....is this faith that the Christians the the Muslims and the Buddhists and .... have been talking about all along? I know, not fair to take a few people to represent entire groups.

What about events in the bible? I have always wondered about these things. To skip most of it, I will only point out a few examples that I would be very grateful if someone would clear it up for me. Exactly how big was Noah's Ark? I mean it should have been big enough for 2 of each animal on Earth to live in for a long time right? Also, despite all the storms and floodings, how in the world did a fragile olive stem survived and coincidently was there for a dove to pick up? Ahhhh... gotta go to class. Later.
--- mal

im not a belever because there is no god if there was there wouldnt be a war where jusus was born if there is a jesus
--- richard

i do believe that jesus exsisted but he was a bullshit artist and he does not deserve so much praise the christian religion is the wrong religion and i think all religions should stop........we were put on this earth and we shouldnt kill each other over some person that doesnt exsist and/or we are never going to see fuck god fuck allah fuck budism its a bunch of bullshit
--- bas

if god exsisted there would not be fighting in the world there woudld be no dieses and if god were true why the fu*k doesnt he save my family mum and dad in the world trade centre attacks i think jesus is the biggest scam on earth. and i think we should serously give up all religions
--- bas

i need proof the church is a ridicule in itself
--- joe

if god existed my life wouldn't suck.
--- the one that got away

Is there a god? First we would have to come up with a widely accepted definition of god. Supreme Being, creator of the universe and all living things, immortal, and all powerful. A widely accepted scientific principle that has yet to be disproved is that matter is neither created nor destroyed, it just changes form. This makes the concept of a creator very unlikely. The best proof I ever heard for the existence of a creator to the universe is the clock maker theory. If you have a clock, that proves there was a clock maker. The clock didn’t just appear out of thin air. Same could be said (or inferred) for the universe, you have a universe, and therefore you have a universe creator. Assuming you accept this proof, nothing can be assumed about this creator, not personality, appearance or even still alive today. All of these traits for God were manufactured by man to suit the needs of those who are in power. Just because the universe is here, this still doesn’t prove the existence of a creator. This was more likely a natural phenomena involving matter changing form.
--- "Anon"

Im just going to put some song lyrics on here. They are by a band called aus rotten.

Right wing theocracy maintaining inequality
have organized politically to uphold traditional hierarchies
Between rich and poor, black and white, wanting homo sexuals out of sight
and conventional marriage between women and man
and increasing political pressure until abortion is banned because killing is bad but guns are good, for slaying doctors like jesus would or arming christian soldiers for the next crusade
Killing all the heathens that won't be saved
Protecting us from immigrant and perverted sexual deviants
a world of mindless christians is what they want
carrying on their modern day witch hunt
falwell, roberson, and kennedy are defining immorality
they're bashing sexuality and cashing in on bigotry
The christian reconstructionists are acting as the catalysts
grooming young activists to become christian fundamentalists
convincing with every medium that can lend a hand
that the youth should serve gods divine plan
so that "biblical law" can be set in place and their bigoted morals must be embraced
thats the christian coalition's resolution
to transform every home into god's institution
with a kitchen for women and a closet for gays
and a man in charge to make sure thats where they stay
and if they dont comply theres always domestic violence to keep women subordinate, scared and silent
making everything the way that god would want
contribution to his modern day witch hunt. Demonizing feminism, indoctricating sexism
national chauvinism promotes authoritarianism
empowered women threaten the christian plan
of being obedient dog and serving man
like the gays, lesbians, and transgenders
rules that dont reflect christian principals
living your life by what the bible says
but your god is a myth and Christ is dead
Letting the bible do your thinking is so absurd
because your manufactured god never wrote a word
those who actually wrote the bibles on your shelves
were straight, bigoted men just like yourselves
your word of god is just a front
that justifies this modern day witch hunt
--- Derek Hays

I believe that Jesus Christ did exist, and that there is a god. But, i think that the god that people belive in now, is false. The christian religion now is just so hypocritical. You ask how? Ok. Killing is bad right? But guns are good? For slaying doctors like jesus right? Or arming christian soldiers and telling them that they are fighting the good fight so the feel more comfortable depriving other human rights. This is crap. Ive also noticed at school, the Christian kids are the ones that make fun of me and kick my ass because im different... im sure that makes god proud. There was a kid wearing a what would jesus do wrist band, and he comes up to me and calls me a faggot. Yeah, thats what Jesus would do...
--- Derek Hays

Agh. Sorry somehow I got posted twice. Computers can be so confusing. Enjoy,
--- Shadow

So, I am a disbeliever. "God" has yet to strike me down with lightning bolts. hehe. I was involved in an evangelist church for awhile, you know the churches where people speak in tongues and while you pray, sometimes you cry and fall over, unable to stand up again because God's love is so strong. Whatever.
I objected strongly to this, often challenging the bible to the point that I was asked to leave. I never did it in a rude or vulgar way, I would challenge things like, Where are the dinosaurs in the bible? Why was it ok for them to have slaves, and demean men simply because their skin is a different color? Does God still permit slavery, and is he abhored in Heaven because we are freely accepting all skin colors? Wasn't that God's own personal hell? Because he states many times that a caucasian MAN will always be superior. Always. Props to Brendan, and especially to Ezekiel who addressed this. Timothy was a chauvenist pig. It is so obvious, but still people read this and accept it as truth.
Why belive in a God that you are never fully able to reach? That no matter who good and how faithful you are, you will always be condsidered stained and dirty in front of Jesus. That is just a bunch of Bull$hit. And why become so 'sucked' up in a religion that I become unable to think for myself. As Ezekial puts it, religion is a lifejacket that people cling to, blinding themeselves to the 'sinners' all in the name of God. Where is the beauty in that?
I have yet to see a miracle with my own eyes, I have yet to feel God inside of me. People do unspeakable things in the name of the Lord. Well, by all means, if you killed someone because God told you to, then of course you shall be forgiven. I cannot fathom this stupidity. I am much to intelligent and self-assured to buy my into any sort of organized religion. Organized religion is the worst. I mean, what's with condeming Harry Potter and J.K Rowling for writing about 'the devil and sorcery?' I mean, this is a children's books, written to be enjoyable. Is your religion that shaky, that fallible? That if your child reads this book he would be scarred for life? AHK.
Ok, I am starting to get off subject. Well, not really. I am just not making the point I was trying to. Well, actually..
So, no I do not believe in God. And proclaim that proudly, just as the believers revel in their belief. Feel free to argue against me. I personally cannot see how anyone can read a book where sexism and slavery is condoned. Where everything is based on absolutly nothing.
--- Shadow

I've never felt anything remotely spiritual in my entire life. Call it apathy or emotional constipation, but the fact remains: I am numb and void of emotion when it comes to God. Religion holds nothing but dogma and rules, no salvation or joy. I cannot connect to the deity, church causes me to become desperate because everybody else is full of joy, hearing and feeling things I cannot. For a long time I thought I was Christian, then I realized that nothing happened when I prayed at night, kneeling for hours only to find my knees bruised and my mind full of one sided pleading. Never have I seen God, felt God, had a moment of clarity where I knew beyond all doubt that he existed; that he cared. I left my church and sought other gods, the kind Christians call false and demonic and all sorts of other names and still I felt nothing.

Dabbling in the occult left me as spiritually barren as before. So many people claim Satan appears to them, but I haven't seen proof of either God or Lucifer. Finally I gave up concluding that there is no God. Atheism was hard for me, and so I label myself agnostic. I don't know if there is a God or not, all I know is that he has never revealed himself to me, and I cannot trust in the faith of others when I am simply empty myself.
--- "Anon"

Well, I couldnt care less about whether there is a "god" or not. There is no evidence either way that could indicate anything even remotely convincing, in either argument. However, I believe organized religion is crap... and if there is a god... it surely isnt what he intended us pions to occupy ourselves with.
Here is why..

1.) Organized religion causes predjudice and dissent.
-Throughout the history of the world, people have been prosecuted, jailed, and often killed for thier religious beliefs. The species is divided by religion. Religion teaches people and children they are different from others not involved with thier religion. Governments are infested, disestablishmentarianism is avoided, millions suffer simply because they believe something different. Even at a gentle level...think today how many of our parents, grandparents would be upset if we married someone from a different religion? My grandmother would. If not your parents specifically, surely somebody you know. This is pathetic and truely sad.

2.) Religion cannot be proved, thus is stupid to define.
-Yeah, yeah.. go on and tell me how you can prove it with your heart, and all that crap. Religious people fart around with the definition of the word proof.. for me, it isnt proof unless you can prove it to everyone. (I obviously use the word "everyone" in a reasonable mannor). The simple truth is, if a religion could be proved then it would be the only one out there.

3.) 95% of religious people dont choose thier own religion.
-How many of you did? Did your parents say, "Well we are jewish... but let us teach you about all these other religions, and you can decide which one personally suits you best."
I dont think so.

4.) Organized religion induces fanatisism and terrorism.
-As you can see by recent events, people are very willing to kill alot of innocent people, and even themselves in the name of religion. And they truely believe that "god" wants them to do it. Religion is easily turned into the most dangerous weapon in the world... why? Because all your guilt is absolved because it is done in gods name. Pure bull$hit.

5.) If a sentient god exists, and if he wished humans to follow a specific religion, it is impossible for one to determine which religious laws were defined by "god" and which were written by men.

-If you believe in a fair and loving god, then I think it is safe to assume these passages are instituted by man... not god. So how do you tell about the less obvious ones?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife just as Christ is the head of the church, the body of which he is the Savior. Just as the church is subject to Christ, so also wives ought to be, in everything, to their husbands.
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. Render service with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not to men and women, knowing that whatever good we do, we will receive the same again from the Lord, whether we are slaves or free.

- Ephesians 5:21-6:9

"Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived; but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing, provided they continue in faith and love and holiness, with propriety (1 Timothy 2:11-15)."

"I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ... (1 Corinthians 11:3)."

A few chapters later in the same letter, Paul, the apostle who wrote these words, goes on to say ...

"... women should be silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as the law also says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husband at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

6.)The benefits religion gives people could be better served without it.
-The only point I can concede to for why organized religion is valid, is that it can comfort and offer support to those in need. However I know for me that the ear and hug of a good friend is more comforting that talking to some robed man in a wooden closet through a screen. And if humanity started relying in each other, instead of trying to placate some "higher being", I think we could utilize our full potential as a species, by truely believing and trusting in each other.

7.) If god is all knowing and created us, (as most religions state, those who dont are excluded from this argument), free will is impossible and all religion is irrelevant.
- An all knowing god who creates an individual, knows thier future before even creating them. Thus, he creates thier future, making free will impossible. And therefore, whether you practice a religion or not is irrelevant. The kicker is, he then judges you on what he created you to do... Interesting.)

8.) Organized religion destroys culture and societies.
- Because of the utterly annoying aspect of most religions, recruitment and prophesizing, individuality and culture are lost. Think of the christian missionaries for one. What right do they have to go into some country, and disturb the customs and rituals of a people because they think they are less enlightened or some other bull$hit? Organized religion is more interested in conforming people, than uniting them.

-Brendan

--- "Anon"

Well see..according to philosophy..everything has to have a cause. For instance..God caused the world to exist and created man. But what caused God to exist? There would have to be something a step higher than Him. And since there isn't. God cannot exist.
--- JJ

I think if there is a god and he created humans it was the biggest mistake of his "life". We are destroying the planet and will eventually destroy ourselvs but if there were an almighty god wouldn't he have put an end to this by now. If there is or ever will be a hell we are in it or creating it now.
--- Dan

I know I don't beleive in god but other then that I have no clue. I beleive in evelution to some extent and i beleive juesus was a great man but i don't think he came back from the dead. But the bible was just written about people who claimed to see these things. If someone else were to write about seeing Jesus alive again no one would beleive then. Why did people then. Especially when people were even less trusting then. I think it was all put together by random people looking for attention and thats exzactly what they got.
--- Dan

i hear people say let god into your life let jesus in the way it is with me is i was never a strong beleiver in god and my brother is very sick know he only has 2-3 months tops and for people that has lost family or someone close to them you know it is not one bit easy and the Q thats is on my mine is that way did he put us he for and then put us throw so muck pain and back to leting god in god has not do one thing to make this any easyer on me and thats my veiw
--- david

Christianity is based on fairy tales and lies told by primitive people 2000 years ago. We all know that it's physically impossible for a virgin to give birth, and for a dead person to come back to life -so, there goes you're whole faith out the window.
The bible contains thousands of "quotes" that were supposedly made by Jesus and others...ask yourself, how were all of these quotes obtained? Was someone running around taking notes? Specifically, how does anyone know what Jesus said on the cross? The truth is, no one could possibly know...he had recieved a brutal beating, he then carried the cross to the crucifixion site, and then had spikes driven through his hands(wrists) and feet. The suggestion that he could have spoken clearly, and be heard by anyone, is ludicrous!
I could go on all night about the ridiculously untrue events that are described in the scripture...people turning to stone, angels appearing and speaking to shepherds, ghosts, and let's not forget Noah -this guy allegedly built an Ark faster than you could build a new front porch! It's all a bunch of BS!

I choose to life my life in reality, instead of basing my whole idea of faith on 2000 year old wives tales.

BC
--- BC

Well... I think that I'm gonna be the new GOD!

http://kemo_d.boltpages.com/life/
--- kemo d.

for those who say "it's true because it's in the bible", are you aware that the bible has been revised several times? throughout the ages as various kings have come into power, they would look to the bible as population control. kings would add and remove text at will, depending on their own beliefs and what they thought the populace should be allowed to read. the last major revision was performed by king James, hence most bibles are called the king james version. so really, if you stop and think about it, god didn't write that bible you cling to in the pews. neither did Paul, or Henry, or the miscellanious authors of the other books in the bible. this is one thing that always strikes me as ironic when i hear "the bible says...." no, some despotic king says...
--- star hunt

I consider myself a non-believer. I live in a strong christian family. I go to church every Sunday and I pray a lot because I promised my parents that I would do so. People that does not know me very well think that I am religious because of what I do.

Here is my thought in the matter. If I believe in something, does it necessarily make it true? I think the answer is "no". I do not support my claims with "I believe...." or "I don't believe...." By the way, the words "I believe..." are very popular with preachers and believers, from my experience. Words like "I don't believe..." from non-believers does not impress me either. Like I said before, believing something does not necessarily make it true. Now, it gets worse when people say, "it must be so..." or "it can't be so...." These words are words of assumptions. Just because I assume something does not make it true.

Although I do not believe in any religious doctrine or moral laws, I follow the Golden Rule. Can I safely assume that everyone knows what this is? Good. The Golden Rule saids it all!

Well, I will write more on the subject later.
--- lam

God does not exist. It doesn't do me any good to convince some perfectly happy, perfectly blind Christian to see it my way.
I just have to get my opinion out there so I can feel better. I hate the hipocrites that most christians have become. I am spiritual, but in my own way. I am not mad at the world, I just can't find any evidence to point to God. Have a good life, all.
--- Nate

Wow, Amy, that's an incredible argument. Who made post-it notes? I dunno, must be God. Who invented the typewriter? I dunno, must be God. The "I don't know, must be God" argument was used a long time ago....Greeks said that Gods must carry the sun across the sky...they said Gods caused the changing of seasons....Hmm...something to ponder on?
--- GermsLiveInMyHat

I just read Kelly's post and it made me think of another things - FATE! You gullible little sheep that believe in predestination and whatnot...step in front of a cement truck going 65...see what fate does about that...
--- GermsLiveInMyHat

I've beaten this topic to death with everyone I know, ended friendship and relationship alike.....yet at this point...right now...as I write these very words....I look around at the things around me....Sanford Super Sharpie Permanent Marker....just looking at the design and shape....centuries of effort to the point where this...CD's...computers are so common...and people STILL for thousands of years (memory hazy, otherwise could give a better estimate....brain hurts...need...Mountain Dew....okay better) they still follow the same outlook towards faith and everything else.....but I still see God as a fictional character invented by people just trying to draw an outline for society (not to mention quiet people who were afraid to die...."Hey, if you die, no biggie, you'll live in paradise with God...you won't simply have no consciousness and provide sustenance for maggots and worms to grow and breed and make more of their kind, whose descendants will eventually feed on the flesh of your great grandchildren....but don't go against what God tells you, or you'll burn and scream and cry in torment until the end of time....but he Loves You!") I see God as yet another in a series....look and Greek/Roman gods/goddesses...they were used to explain the as-of-then inexplicable..sunrises...nighttime...changing of seasons...but that was shattered thanks to scientific breakthrough ("Holy crap, we're stupid, THAT'S how it worked") so we currently use this incompetent father figure who doesn't give a sh*t (God) to explain what we can't explain : Creation of the universe, Dan Quayle, etc....what happens when we figure these things out? No more God.
--- GermsLiveInMyHat

God hmmm well i went to a christian school growing up but i was raised primaraly atheiast, but allowed to make my own choises in the matter like anyone should be.

I belive that each one of us our our own God and we are the only ones that can save our soul or follow the rightious path or what have you. This is only my humbal belife I dont push it or nock on doors and tell people that there going to hell because they dont share my belife so why is it that people come to my home and invade my space and try and tell me Iam going to hell for not shareing theres?

As far as makeing a choise to think for myself and not belive in a set god or religeons in general it was a choise I made after reading the whole bible and reading up on other religeons as well. Although it didnt hurt my choise when my teacher at my christian school told me that gay people go to hell and god only tolerates them and has no love for them. Iam not gay but my uncle who I love very much is and he is dieing of AIDS the thought of him going to hell for who he is in his heart is discusting to me. Not that this person represents the entire religeos comunity and not that they all feel this way or that she has any say in who goes to heaven or hell. Its just that the level or ignorance in the religeous community is disconcerting to me, and religeon isnt in our schools for a reason. Who is anyone else to say who has the right belife or not, I wont say that.

--- "Anon"

chocolate is to sweet
--- "Anon"

http://wtf.rotten.com/wtf/wtf.01/jesus-boy.html
--- "Anon"

I don't believe it does us any good to believe in God. It is amazing that, in our great multiverse, the energy constants and variables necessary to create and keep life were just right. I think we just got lucky. I think we need to focus on now. Most religions seem to have nice stories with cute lessons to live by, but not enough evidence to prove anything, especially a god. Creationism isn't even a theory, as there is no way to prove or disprove it. I have decided to live in and for the life I am living now. Nobody guides me without my consent, my fate is not already decided, I do not have to answer to a higher being. I say,"let there be light," when I flick the light switch to the on position. Hedonism is a wonderful way of life. Religion causes more suffering and hardship than it does good. It creates a false sense of security and hope. People waste money, time, and many other resources on religion. Religion prevents people from controlling the world's population-and where disease and starvation would help to keep the uncontrolled population in check, some people step in and "help" those in need. Religion and culture continue to fight against practicality and reason. It is only good to help those in need if they are willing to help themselves. Feeding the hungry that continue to reproduce without changing their lifestyle only creates more hungry mouths to feed. I know a lot of that has nothing to do with God. I am sure that the belief in God does a little bit of good, but I think it does even more bad. God has nothing to do with me.
--- Kelly

Okay, okay, so I lied. This is really my final message. I'll also leave an e-mail address in the forthcoming forum too for any abusive emails you care to send for me being too blasphemous, too insulting, too confusing, or perhaps making too much sense (unlikely).

I'll also be posting my 'Treatise on Free Will' in the near future, which will hopefully summarise and organise all this stuff I've been saying without any need to read thru jumbled scrawl over many months.

My final message is for the other non-believers, so if you are a believer, look away now :)
Starting again in chronological order.

Dear Deborah,

Congratulations for taking the first step towards disbelief. The points you made are often stated, and succinct, yet most churches can still refute these arguments based on God's love for humanity.
Talk to your local priest and watch him explain, the results can often be quite informative, as most priests are very well indoctrinated and can attempt to explain anything.

Dear RKH,
Don't feel guilty, don't feel angry. These feelings are perfectly normal. You don't have to justify your disbelief. You also don't need to choose any religion. Your only concern is really the fact that we're all going to die, and if there really is no God, then is life really hopeless? Religion acts as a lifejacket for people to cling to so they don't drown. However, without a lifejacket, that doesn't mean you will necessarily drown, it should mean that you should quickly learn to swim. How you do this is a long process, requiring much thought and different for each individual. You can also choose the quick way and practice denial (which is kinda like letting yourself drift and float aimlessly).

Dear Anon (4),
You are at the mid-phase of your disbelief cycle :)
You make very worthwhile points which are easily defendable against any religion.
Congratulations for being one of the few who see clearly. Unfortunately, there aren't prizes awarded for this, and no spiffy afterlife :)

Then again, life wasn't meant to be easy, why should death be any different?

In conclusion,
I'd like to thank this website, God, all my fans, and everyone else.
Its been fun arguing with you all, and I hope this has been as informative for believer/non-believer alike out there as it has been for me.

If I've insulted anyone, I apologise, but I'm sure you'll forgive me. For is not God forgiving? And should we not follow in his footsteps?

Sorry, I couldn't resist that :)

--- Ezekiel 25:17

I guess this will be my last message on this forum as the new one is about to begin, so I'll try to keep this short :)

In addition, I sincerely hope that the new forum actually places new messages on the bottom, rather than the top, just for my own coherency, altho I guess it does save a lot of scrolling.
Can people pls also leave some kind of name as opposed to 'Anon'?

Okay, on with the real stuff in chronological order from bottom to top, left to right :)

Dear Holly,

The world is beautiful. The world is good. We all receive many blessings. These are all very nice things, but they aren't arguments which really point to Jesus being our eternal saviour.
If the world really sucked, and we were all suffering, we shouldn't believe?

He hears your prayers? Does he manifest himself tangibly in answering them. What does he do? Or perhaps you're just praising him or asking for guidance? In either case, good for you.

I guess people always blame God for bad things happening when Satan is really to blame. But, Satan was created by the Church to prove that humanity has free-will, and to explain why bad things occur, and I will be refuting this in my 'Treatise on Free Will', Coming soon to a Forum near you.

To Anon (1): The thought there is no God, to me, is a definate key to the firey gates of hell.

Now that statement, is classic church dogma. If you don't believe, join us and give us money, you will go to hell. Nuf said. Furthermore, that means you should stop preaching to people in other countries, as they are far better off if they never realise there is a God. Once they realise there could be a God, and reject it they seemingly go to Hell, if they have no idea, they go to purgatory. (More on that later)

Dear Anon 2:
Okaaaaay then, I suppose for some, watching a movie is somewhat akin to real life.
I hope this was a God inspired production.
Personally, I preferred 'Dogma' myself. Interesting concept, cult movie, but coulda been done better :) But then again, this isn't the movie Forum.

Finally, Dear Anon #3 (topmost message - Believer's Side).
If you have seen these miracles, great. We could consider other more rational explanations for these events but I won't bother (E.g. Misdiagnosis). We'll argue this on your own terms :)

Upbringing as a Christian - well how can you not believe? Personally, I have Catholic parents, went to an Anglican school, and been to numerous 7th Day Adventists and Protestant camps. Wrote a treatise on Buddhism and Eastern beliefs. Its called 'perspective' :)

On miracles: If God performs miracles, then that means he will interfere in everyday human life. That also means that if he has the capacity to do so, why doesn't he intervene more often to a wider public? If he did that, then obviously more people would believe. If you need a tangible miracle to believe he exists, than is that really faith? More often that not, you'll find the sick are cured by scams and evangelists, sad but true. Otherwise, these miracles would be common-place. Its also rather difficult for scam artists to part oceans. Another example: If someone came up to you today, and said, his friend had parted the ocean, you'd call him nuts. Yet you would believe a book written by humans numerous centuries ago, by someone you don't even know?

The answers are in black and white and red? Oh Goody, tell me which page? I must be missing the Answers to Life section in my version of the Bible. Just flip there for me and tell me if life exists elsewhere in the universe, pro-life or pro-choice abortion and why Bill Clinton ever became the US President. :)

What do I lose by believing? A hell of a lot of spare time worshipping a non-existemt deity? I guess I could always save time repenting on my deathbed. The true question which I reiterate, is not 'What have you got to lose?' but 'What have you got to gain?'

I rest my case.
--- Ezekiel 25:17

Greetings :)

My my, mail does tend to accumulate when one has been absent over a month, and I'm glad this board has again been vibrant in the last few weeks.

So much to say, where to begin....
Firstly, I guess I should apologise to Aslan. I went overseas, and have not yet had the opportunity to read up on C.S. Lewis. That will be rectified soon :)
I did however, pick up a book called 'The Tenth Insight' by James Redfield, which was also recommended to me. Supposedly a best-seller around America for merging philosophical and religious beliefs. It was quite amusing, in that the author has carefully tailored this book to attract a cult following and has done so reasonably well. It also subtly encourages readers to give him money, a great scam in all.
Frankly, it plays on gullibility to a degree, but I guess each to their own.

I also went and saw a show exposing the fraudulent form of medicine known as 'Chi Gong', the power through Chinese healing. But then again I digress.

In reply to Believer, I've repeatedly tried your experiment, most often at about 20,000 feet in the air, aboard aircrafts, with no success. Also, I attempted to do so, in various churches around Europe in Italy, France, Holland and London with no success.

Now, back to more current events I guess, on both sides.
--- Ezekiel 25:17

I don't believe that there is a 'God' or even a 'Goddess' per se...the fact that there are over a hundred different representations of the 'Supreme Being' shows that. The myraid representations/beliefs and the need for humanity to hold someone else responsible for the situation each person finds him/herself in (if it isn't agreeable) drives us to create a 'Supreme Being(s)' to hold responsible. The complete lack of responsibility shown by the average person today is a hallmark of that- "I'm a Christian/practicing Jew/Pagan/Buddist/Taoist (or whatever), and I'm not responible because it's 'God's' will, and there's nothing I can do to change it." The way you live your life should showcase your beliefs, but if you look around you, most of the "Christians" and "Believers", or whatever they call themselves, are the least moral of all of us. Organized religion, actually most religion in general, is a cop out. It allows a person to refuse to take responsibility for their life. Each person is completely responsible for the results of their own actions, but most people use religion and "belief" to get out of being responsible.
Religion has created some of the worst wars ever, the Crusades being a prime example. It doesn't matter how you get to the Light, as long as you get there and don't hurt anyone along the way. "There is no one true way." Jesus, a very wise man, preached tolerance, but no one listened. They only heard what they wanted to hear. The "Golden Rule", do unto others..., is present in every existing religion, and is ignored by the majority of each religion's practicioners. I find it hard to believe in God or anything remotely related when those who profess to be followers behave like rabid animals.
I also refuse to believe that such an entity (if it did exist) would take any interest at all in my life. As one of my favorite books says, "God is too busy making the sun come up and go down and watching so the moon floats just right in the sky to be concerned with such rubbish. Always it is man who wants to make Heaven and Hell."
Some of the non-organized religions out there- the ones without the set congregations and rules, etc.-are good guidelines for living, but that's all that religion should be, a guideline for living. If you want to believe in something, that's fine. Just don't push it on me, or tell me that I'm a horrible person because I don't believe in whatever you believe.
--- "Anon"

Can't help thinking that there's no way to tell which religion to follow except through feeling. And if feeling doesn't tell which religion to follow, what to believe in, then, for that person, there is no religion. To be so dedicated to a certain type of religion, a certain interpretation of a religious book, as dedicated as others with different interpretations -- both ppl. are good -- why should one suffer? Why should I suffer because I don't know to feel 'the right way' (believing in religion), when I am otherwise a good person? So I conclude that either most religions are wrong or that I have a fundamental disagreement with the Boss. If the former, fine -- I am not evil because I do not believe in something; and I hope to heck that there is an afterlife. If the latter, there is a point in the hopeless fight.
--- RKH

I'm not sure I can beleive in him. He "says" he put people on the earth to worship him, but why didnt he just create some zombies to worship him all day instead of inventing his people. If he cared for us he wouldnt say we would go to hell if we didnt believe him. If we are his own children and he invented us, and gave us personalities thats like he knows whos going to hell and whos not. Think about that
--- Deborah Wilde

I just couldn't believe that a logical and omnipotent God could create some of the rabid fundamentalists I've run into...
--- "Anon"

It's a deal.
CS Lewis does sound familiar.
I know he wrote the Narnia series didn't he?
Any suggested titles I look at?
--- Ezekiel 25:17

Why do people seem to find God when at their lowest point?

Very rarely do truly happy people feel the need to search out a religious deity to justify their existence.
Then again, it is very rare for a truly happy person to exist :) (Note: denial)

When at the point of depression, humanity as a rule reaches out for salvation.
Whilst some try drugs, alcohol, smoking or self-assertiveness tapes, so others choose religion.
This form of salvation is then what people use to cling onto against all logic and common-sense, as they feel if they let go of this one form of salvation, then hope is beyond them.

The reason for belief, is that people are desperate for something to cling to. A bit of flotsam on the stormy ocean. People out there see signs, visions, portents from the most innocuous objects.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that this is a bad thing. People as a general rule need hope to survive as much as anything else. But, like drugs, alcohol and smoking, religion ultimately gets you addicted. It won't kill you per se as the former will, but its a form of self-denial that is an impediment to true fulfillment.

This is because it is a form of self-blindness. Ultimately this will lead into mindlessly obeying the intricate dogmatic laws prescribed by most organised religions. Free thought and questioning is usually frowned upon.

Just some food for thought.
Arguably this article is more inflammatory than constructive, as it doesn't offer any reasonable alternatives to achieve salvation. However, I'd just like to check if there are enough people out there reading this that care.
I also apologise for the number of complex words in this document, but I guess if you really care, you can always make use of that dictionary you never use. I can always throw in a few thous, forsooths and verily if that helps.

Cheers.
--- Ezekiel 25:17

Hey, I'm back :)
Who missed me?
As much fun as religious debate is, holidays do come first!
On a side note, if anyone did bother to email me, that address is/was now redundant.

I have tried what Believer suggested Aslan, on more than 1 occasion with no success.
I guess my religious pilgrimage has not yet begun, or perhaps I should start learning new languages in the hopes that someone up there will actually respond.

On that note, I ask that anyone interested in serious debate on this topic, read up on David Hume, a reknowned Scottish philosopher and his theories on miracles and God.

I guess in my absence, debate has died down somewhat, as debates often do when there is only 1 side present. However, Marlynne again provides an example of the human psyche at its best.

I refer back to the article i wrote earlier to Old School, in regards to the fragmentation of society. Let me begin by asking a few questions?
(to be continued)

--- Ezekiel 25:17

My apologies.
Indeed, you are correct Believer, that I should be writing on this side, but blue is more my colour :)

I'll restrain myself to this side of the column from now on, altho I consider myself to be an agnostic rather than atheist.

I'd just like to clear up a misconception that I have totally rejected the idea of a God. What I have rejected is the idea that there is a Christian God, or God of any organised religion.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to believe God is everywhere. He's not in churches, which man created, but in the world, and all around us.
Furthermore, I'm disclined to believe that God is perfect. Although I am flawed, and the world was created somehow, I don't expect the idea of a perfect being. However, I'm willing to accept there might be a Supreme being, who created this universe, and may possibly have stuffed up somewhere along the line. Perhaps someone, who views humanity as a fascinating social experiment.

I'm not saying God is anything resembling humans. But anybody which creates anything, would be more motivated by curiosity and would believe that he/she would have the power to determine the fates of everybody. Free-will, perfect love, are all romanticised notions, of a Supreme Being who sits back and enjoys watching the permutations of human endeavour. Much as we enjoy watching insects scurry along the ground.

I am willing to try your little experiment, and I must confess its something which again belief is required. Much like meditation, God seems to require true belief b4 he miraculously appears, and if he doesn't, the reason must be becoz you are too sceptical.

However, hope springs eternal, and I'll give it a few attempts this coming week.
Thank you for the suggestion.

--- Ezekiel 25:17

Dear Brooke,

How are you today?
You sound confused.

I'm fairly sure that last reply was directed at me, but somehow I saw no reference whatsoever to the Big Bang theory in my post.

In fact, I couldn't care less about the Big Bang theory, or the creation story as they are things which are at present totally unprovable.

My dear, I've answered all the questions you pose, but perhaps you were not seeing clearly enough. I empathise with your plight and recommend a good optician.

Cheers

--- Ezekiel 25:17

As Aristotle put it, years before Christ was born (and I'm paraphrasing) For there to be a Creation, there must be a Creator. Now, if you are going to pull out the Big Bang theory, ask yourself..what or who created the elements/atoms for the Big Bang to occur? I'm sorry that you feel the need to try to put others down to justify your belief/disbelief. I stand by the questions I posed earlier. I really do feel empathy towards you.
--- Brooke

Dear Brooke,

It appears you are a troubled individual. You have a lot of deep down anger and resentment nestled within your heart. You seem to take any comments against God personally. I suggest you pray to your God for the civility and serenity to avoid personal attacks, and concentrate on logic.

1.If you don't believe in God, why are you here?

I am here, because a question was posed and I felt the need to justify my response. This is not a forum about 'why you believe in god?' its about 'whether there is a god.'

2. Why did I post?
I feel no more urge to defend my disbelief as others do to defend their belief. I simply state the facts, and allow others to interpret it as they will.

I don't hate god. I can accept the idea that there may possibly be a God, although whether he is omnipresent, has omniscience and even cares about the human race is another matter.

I don't hate organised religion either. I simply state the reasons why they exist, which is simply to provide an outlet for our fears and emotions and act as a community resouce centre.

Any choices I have made, were my own decisions, I need not look to God to justify any of them.
If anyone should be mad at their lives, consider the millions of disadvantaged out there, who still manage to get along without organised religion.

You like snappy quotes?
Two wrongs don't make a right, Three wrongs make a right.

Its easy to believe in God, once you accept the small lies, it makes the big ones such as justice and religion that much easier to swallow.

Neverunderstimate the power of denial.
--- Ezekiel 25:17

http://home.att.net/~j-buckner/toughanswers.html
--- Someone M. Else

If you don't believe in God, why are you here? I mean honestly, why do you feel the need to defend your disbelief? You came here..you posted...why is that? Is it because you are angry at God because of the way your life has turned out? Are you mad because of the choices you made? Are you mad because of choices made for you? Grow up! If you didn't truly believe in God you wouldn't be reading this. The opposite of love is not hate. It's indifference.
--- Brooke

i don't believe in god .because my inoscent brother was killed by somebody.till now we couldnot find out the culprit. the god didn't saved my brother's life.that is the reason why i don't believe in god.
--- prasanna.s.v

"Faith is believing what you know aint true"-Mark Twain
--- "Anon"

De-constructing religion (for Christians)

Imagine a concept that will capture the minds and hearts of countless millions. A concept that forgives your sins, promises a better afterlife than bleak emptiness, and asks for goodness to everyone.

We are all human, our over-riding concerns are death, survival, salvation and after all that, altruism. How easy is it to just simply take everything we wish for, to pretend it all exists in one entity called God.

There is a multitude of proof that God does not exist. However, I'll concentrate on the fundamentals. If God does exist, why has he not manifested himself in any way? The classical arguments are to espouse free will, and God's policy of non-interference.

However, depending on your view of the bible this is just unbelievable. If you believe the bible in its entirety is God's testament and all true, we can see that he has shown his disapproval and wrath in many ways, including plagues and natural disasters, as well as other manifestations. So, if God has appeared in the past, why not now?

If you believe, the Bible in the old Testament are merely stories to explain the teachings of God, and the new testament is more essential. Consider the fact, that if 1/2 of the bible is fictional, why must the other 1/2 be literal fact?

Furthermore, the bible was written by humans and due to our non-perfection, mistakes have been made and the text has undoubtedly been corrupted. This has caused unimaginable schisms within the church and pain and suffering as different sects persecute the faiths of the others. This is because the mainstay of religion is the undeniable belief that you are right, and everyone else is wrong. Why has God not come to correct these errors in his doctrine when the result is pure confusion?

This is not even to mention the flagrant abuse and unmentionable acts done by the Church in the name of goodness. From inquisitions, religious wars, indulgences, and of course the now so called ‘infallible Popes’, the Christian rules of life have changed to adapt to suit the masses.

Now, religion isn’t a bad thing. It has good intentions and good goals in theory. Now what I object to is the need for religion for humans to behave honourably and well towards each other. All religion is based on the fact that any other religion is in the wrong, and this will inevitably result in conflict as neither side can ever prove their case. From the so-called Sabbath is on the Saturday or Sunday, to the more doctrinal debates, it is impossible for either side to find the actual truth, if there is an actual truth. Thus, in the long-run as long as religion exists, there will never be peace on earth, as one religion will always attempt to save others from ‘burning in hell’ as they say. Not that we are even sure hell exists anymore, with recent revelations there is only a ‘heaven’ and an ‘emptiness’.

But I digress, I could mention more about upbringing, psychology and the reasons religions are so successful but I fear it would only fall on deaf ears. Believers are always far harder to sway as they spend every week getting indoctrinated, whilst non-believers rarely have the effort or the will to write cognisant arguments over the implausibility of religion.

I think I’ll just finish by quoting something I’m sure will inflame most religious zealots out there.
“The basis of all religious wars, is who has the better imaginary friend”.

Goodwill and hope to all mankind? Do we really need a spiritual entity to show us what we should already know?

--- Ezekiel 25:17

god was created,all organized religion is merely fairytales and mind control,i dont believe because im an intelligent person,people say "life cant come from nothing" which is true,BUT,we dont know everything in the laws of science,such as quantum gravity,gravity plays a large part in life.also on sub-atomic levels,particles act more irradictly.An example is that particles can jump from one place to the other faster than the speed of light,a famous experiment first conducted proved it to be true by using a particle accelerator to push the particles through two copper wires,one a straight copper wire,another a wire with a large 2 foot long dense peice of metal.some how the particles traveling through the dense metal didnt actually travel "through" it at all,they completey bypassed it and apparently "willed" themselves passed it,beating the particles from the straight wire.i say all this mumbo jumbo because maybe molecules organized on such a small scale that we cant quite understand yet.another thing creationists say is that we cant even create protein,the building block of life,YET atleast,BUT we can create amino acids,the building blocks of protein,so were on our way there!
--- Anon

I actually belong in both categories because I don't believe you can have a yin without a yang. I signed up here because the unbelievers had fewer entries than the believers.

"If you can't stand the silence, don't listen."

-me
--- Cirrus

Thou art God.
--- STRANGER IN A STRANGE LAND

Some nice quotes are "God exists if you want it to exist". Me personal quote is "God is the perfect and easy asnwer to the big question of who created everything"
--- Lucazzo

no decicsion was ever made to not believe it was just a natural response to reality.One has to defy gravity or something to make me believe cause that's what it would take to fit god into reality based scenario.
--- dave cocco

I'm a believer in life and humanity and if that somehow entails believing in God then so be it! But, as soon as you organize religion the spirit in it dies.
--- "Anon"

The only answer to that (good) question is that God provides us all free will. In as much in doing that, He has to stand back and respect our choices. Even if they make Him weep. Think about it, if God goes back on His word, what standard would that set?
--- Sumo

There are too many questions cannot be answered about circumstances surrounding god. If it is true why would the word be full of so many problems? there are just too many reasons why not.
--- "Anon"

Wow -- from the looks of it -- there must be a lot more believers than non-believers out there.
--- Shocked

There are good Christians, There are bad Christians. There are good athiests, there are bad athiests. I don't allow others actions to dictate my faith. And I certainly don't hide behind 'scientific theories' (key word, theories) when it comes to matters of the heart, or soul.
--- Aslan

This is a reply to the many people in this red collumn of unbelievers who seem to believe that belief in God must always mean faith in religion or even in a church. God has saved me from a lot of misery and given me a great deal of peace and sometimes even serenity. I can not say the same thing about any church or religion. As a matter of fact I believe that churches and preachermen can be corrupt... but this does not change the fact that God is real and will bring you peace if you ask simple, "God, please help me."

I don't know how this forum works but if I may ask a question of the intelligent person whose long comment is several below this one: are you at peace? Do you feel happy most of the time?

I think since this forum is exploring the question of why we do or do not believe in God it is a good question to ask: How do you feel?

I know I've felt better since I came to believe that God will guide me. Better Him than me.

--- Samuel

The next time you donate to your church make your check payable to thy almighty god and in the memo write in "payment toward a reservation in heaven" If you get the check back un cashed it means that your god does not want your money, if your preacher ask for a replacement check then tell hom to get lost and if your check clears the bank your preacher is a fraud.
--- try this

To believe is God is an easy way to cover your guilt.
--- It's a fact

To keegan, your are the biggest bullshit liar on this whole page, it the kind of shit you just described that pisses people like me off. When I was a child I had a kitten that became sick, I prayed constantly that my pet would get well, days went on and my pet continued to get sicker, my prayer went unanswered my pet died and tears streamed from my eyes. At that that point I decided that there was no god and if there was I did not want to be associated with such a chicken shit spirit.
--- not that stupid

Your preacher is not as intersted in saving your soul from hell as he is in saving your bank account for himself.
--- hummmm

If god is so powerful and great why do we need laws to keep the peace and put the crooked preachers in jail, you know Jimmy and Tammy and some others who are just as slimy. By supporting organized religeon you are consenting to thieving, child molesting and the lying scum.

Get a life your back ground may be hazy, forgive yourself and change for the better.
--- think about it

to big cheese,

looking in the mirror proves only that your mom and dad had intercourse.
--- anon

very intersting, however intelligence is realy not a main factor however common sense and the ability to reason are a main factor. To prove that the religeous folks are really insecure and not all that smart, just consider the chruch scandals where the poor god fearing folks trusted thier life savings to the minister, never to been gotten back. How can anyone believe in religeon if the minister does not believe himself. I have been asked on occasion if I believe in GOD. My true answer is that I am not sure if there is a GOD but I am sure that I do not believe in preachers, churches and prayer. I must confess that I have used GOD as a weapon against alleged christains. I am not an evil person I use it "GOD" to make a point of importance in an issue. Just like spirts of the American Indian, GOD is a spirit of most of the world. Why is it that religeon is the main cause of wars if it is so good?

If a person is honest, truthful and reasonably fair with others, that is all that can be expected of anyone and they are as good as or possibly even better than the highest of christains.
--- bj

Hey 'Anon' sometimes people are 'educated' beyond their intelligence. Belief is not the abandonment of reason, it is a leap of faith. It's like standing on the edge of a cliff, closing your eyes and jumping. Your logic tells me I will crash to my demise. My faith tells me I will fly on wings of faith. (No, I don't plan to be jumping off any cliffs this week...just an analogy)
--- Edmund

I am one of those people who, while still in school, was referred to as "gifted". I excelled at academics, skipped two grades, all that stuff, and my mother constantly marvelled that I was "such a smart kid". My parents were devout Lutherans (my father's father, grandfather, etc. for 6 generations back were Lutheran ministers) and it was a foregone conclusion throughout my childhood that I would find myself, on any given Sunday, sitting in church. This was not an option, but a requirement. When I attained young adulthood and was allowed to exercise my own free will in the matter, I chose to no longer attend services on a regular basis. I did and still do attend occasionally, mostly out of respect for my family and for the social interaction with people of good character, but my decision disturbed my mother most profoundly. She asked me once why I had chosen as I did, and I answered that, intellectually, I had some serious misgivings about the existence of God. After all, God's existence is essentially un-provable and un-demonstrable, whereas the alternative evolution theory, for example, is easily validated via the Scientific Method. Evolution is a process that is quite well understood. It's mechanics are logical, predictable, and we can demonstrate the mechanism mathematically. We have observed evolution in action and KNOW that it can and does occur. It is not so great a leap to extrapolate evolution back to the time of creation. God, on the other hand, is much more difficult to prove. There are no formulae, no empirical data, no experiments with predictable outcomes, no direct observations to lend credibility to the theory of a universe created and influenced by God. Intellectually, the existence of God as an explanation for all of creation is a far less probable theory than any of the alternatives I can think of. My mother listened to my explanation patiently, then said, "Why is it all the really smart people seem to have trouble believing in God?" I was stunned. The profound, irrational, hopefully unintentioned arrogance of that question astounded me. In one sentence, she both acknowledged that there are people on this earth who are far more intelligent, more peceptive, more knowledgable, more LIKELY TO BE RIGHT than she, and at the same time utterly rejected the notion that their collective assessment of God as a probable fiction might possibly be right. On any other subject under the sun, she would defer to these "really smart people", but when it comes to God, she could not even entertain the possibility, however remote, that her beliefs might be invalid. I realized, in that moment, that to believe in God requires one to abandon reason. And the concept of faith was devised to allow believers to reconcile what they choose to believe with what they know to be true. Faith requires one to be willing to practice a degree of self-deception. There may be a God, there may not. I don't know. Just as we cannot prove He exists, neither can we disprove it. But I simply cannot accept as immutable fact that which does not bear the proof a fact requires.
--- "Anon"

I was raised as a congregational protestant. My mother of course sent us off to church and sunday school every week, she never attended though. She always said the only people you see in church are the young and the old. The young are sent and the old are trying to get in good with god just in case the whole thing is true they don't want to risk going to hell. Even as a child it seemed a bit out there and as I've gotten older it just really doesn't sound possible. However, it really must be the greatest story ever told because so many people have fallen for it, made careers out of it, and used it to horrify and shame people. When kids have an imaginary friend it is called a phase but when adults believe their imaginary friend created the universe it's called religion. Evolution seems to be the sane road to follow.In the end I hope it is all darkness and I just cease to exist at all, to me it is a much more comforting thought.
--- "Anon"

To the comment:

--- "Anon"

Lance, did you learn you were born a victim, or did someone explain it to you? You poor soul! I wish I could give you a hug!
--- Anon

I was raised in a Baptist church in a western Kansas community. Well, it sure felt like I was raised IN the church. Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Wednesday evening, and on and on. That's an extremely large amount of "hellfire and damnation" for a child to endure. It was their unbending "read it, believe it, or you're going to hell" attitude that made me search for something better. Something right. Something not served on a cold platter and crammed down my throat. I'm not a relativist, but I believe there must be some level of tolerence and respect for the beliefs of others. My beliefs are very personal and very important to me, and they were adopted only after much searching and contemplating. However, that searching would never have taken place if not for that "wonderful" little Baptist church in western Kansas. Thank you.
--- lance

God is a great powerful man, all mighty, all loving, and he loves you... and he NEEDS MONEY! just cant handle that! God is to fool the poor and weak.
--- Keith

For those of u who tend to see Christians "shoving" their belief down other people's throat, then u havn't really experienced the good that comes out of being a Christian. I am 14, and I'm a Christian. I don't go around preaching to other people bcuz I know how weird that sounds. I see Christians on the street screaming what they think is right to other people. I think they are weird, too. I am not simple minded and mellow, I am actually very wild and some people call me crazy. I don't walk around with a perfect mouth(language wise) and perfect clothes that are totally concealed. I do wear shorts that are a little too short and shirts that are a little too low. I admit it's not the best choice of them all but to be Christian u don't have to be perfect
--- Jessi

In order to believe in Satan you must believe in God. Without one, there is not another. Think about it. With no Creator, there is no fallen angel.
--- Sumo

Why believe in God? There's no point. I believe in Satan.
--- "Anon"

i don't understand how anyone can believe in a god. simple as that.
(cats in heat.)
--- morgan

Atlas Shrugged!
--- DANTE

When I'm on a mountaintop soaking in the sunshine and breathing in the fresh air, I can't imagine that anything less than chance created the beauty that surrounds me.

--- Wymsey

I don't think it's necessary to worship a God that isn't there. Morals and beleifs don't have to come from a supreme being, just from within. Not beleiving doesn't make a person horrid, and samned to a Hell that doesn't exist. Personally, I'm tired of narrow-minded Christians pushing their beleifs down other's throats. o.k. if I don't beleive that's my choice, as everyone has a choice, but keep it too yourself. I don't wanna hear about your fake "good" existence, when mistakes are made by everyone, Christian or not. I think spirituality comes from within, and morals and acceptence should come from within. thank you....(i am not a devil worshiper)
--- a. phillips

I'd like to believe in a God but why is it that all the people who tend to believe in God seem so damn trite and simple minded?
--- "Anon"

For me it's not really a great big question. I just never think about it. I know a lot of people spend a lot of time thinking about it but I jsut don't. I don't know if I would say I'm a total atheist or anything, I'd just say, it just doesn't seem to register as something that I really need to be too concerned with.
--- "Anon"